''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE

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Dontaskme
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Re: ''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE

Post by Dontaskme »

Beauty wrote:So do you mean that we are No Thing - emptiness, appearing as Some Thing?
But then if we need to be non-existent then we just become no thing - emptiness again?
We ARE but only in relation to we ARE NOT

We ARE because we know we ARE NOT ...We are aware first, but cannot see or know that. How we become aware of ourselves is as and through what we are aware OF....
It is in the awareness WE ARE ... that all that we are aware OF is seen/known to come and go... (what we are not) which ARE both in the same moment..and must be so if we are to become aware we are aware. But we don't identify with the unchanging part of us, because that cannot be seen, instead, we identify with that which appears to be seen, which is that what we are aware OF .. but what we are aware of is not who we really are.


Our bodies change, our names change, our thoughts, feeling, emotions change, our lives change, nothing we are aware of stays the same. But that which is aware is always and ever the same unchanging awareness.
The awareness that we ARE is inseparable from what we ARE NOT ie: aware OF..
So this is No thing, being every thing.
As awareness we identify with the appearances rather than that with what is aware of all appearances. And that's how we know we ARE...because of the appearances we ARE NOT ..we are both, and yet neither...because everything returns to the one from which it appeared.
Beauty wrote:What I am saying is that this emptiness - no thing is also something, so it's something from something, and so you have no argument at all because something and something is the same.
Yes indeed, something from something, since nothing can be known of nothing. There has to be something here. But to know what that something IS would be impossible without reference to it's opposite albeit an illusory opposite. All opposites are ONE in the same NOW.. ..otherwise nothing could be known.

Oneness or Somethingness is not an illusion. Your relationship (the mind/body organism) with it is an illusion.

Human thinking whatever it is or isn't ...appears to superimpose all it's ideas over what is already here/ there.

The body, the organism has no interest in the minds ideas about self, conscious, subconscious, beliefs, emotions, etc, etc, etc. The so-called mind or ''self'', this separative structure is nothing but a functioning mechanism interested in it's own continuity/survival...but that self is a phantom superimposed appearance.

You as you know yourself are not separate from that mechanism because you cannot separate yourself from thought/mind.

And that's how you know yourself, you know yourself as a fictional character, and that in which the fictional character arises is the eternal you.

When you look in a mirror, your reflection is not looking at you, you are looking at your reflection.

The reflection tells you who you are. You are the looker, not what's looked at. What's looked at can't see, it's a mirage. What's seeing, it's what's looking... that ONE can never be seen because it's ONE.... and you are that.

Is this any clearer to you Beauty?
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Re: ''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE

Post by Beauty »

Look, nothing is nothing - zero. To say that something comes from that is to say that nothing is not zero, but contains something. Then how would nothing be nothing if it contains something? So nothing is nothing, and something is something. And both these definitions stand absolute. A duality - not one. Empty space is something even though the emptiness may feel like it is nothing. Empty space might be a kind of energy giving way to things and life in this world which are again energy. Energy is inter-convertible. So we have something from something, not something from nothing. If we could have something from nothing, then how would you define nothing? That it is not zero? That it is 1, 2, 3.......infinity. In extension how would you define something when nothing would be sitting as something, and then what would you be comparing or saying is equal to. So then we have a duality here, not one or oneness. And because of that, we have so many definitions, scenarios, combinations. Maybe because of the duality we have absolute definitions, or against what would we have absolute definitions? That being so, we cannot mix two opposites and say they are one or one and the same thing. If nothing and something were the same then black and white would be the same, dark and light would be the same. Also, if nothing was to become something and vice versa, then we could never go out of existence or come into existence, for we would be forever existent. So what I am saying is, nothing is built into something, so then it is like this - that things and life coming from the elements of the environment are like - pen here today, gone tomorrow, we here today, gone tomorrow. This way we have all choices, all freedoms. For we have something and we also have nothing. And the two stand absolute. It's a duality not oneness.
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Re: ''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE

Post by Beauty »

Nothing and Something are two extremes and in between we have everything, but something did not arise from nothing, something comes from something only, but nothing is there in something for somethings arising to being no more.
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Re: ''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE

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Beauty wrote:Dontaskme, I just wanted clarification on one thing from you first. The ONE, the oneness of which you talk about, is it emptiness - no thing - empty space?
In a sense yes.

Space is just a metaphor for oneness. A steady unchanging state of beingness which is eternal and timeless . Remember words are inadequate here, they are clumsy pointers. They can mean anything and do not really represent this immediate alive presence of I Am-ness that we all are. Words are dualistic by their very nature. But what we are is tacit. Life is a presentation not a representation via words. Words are just silence sounding, or emptiness filling, or no thing thinging.

If this I Am-ness is here now, then it must have always been here now, else it wouldn't be here now. This NOW didn't start therefore it can never end, how can that happen? who is going to witness that? So emptiness / oneness is here now, it's empty, simply because who is going to be the witness of this empty presence without filling it up?

This immediate present Beingness is not an experience, it would be like trying to talk about silence by filling it up with words. There is no one who can witness the start and ending of their own presence, likewise there is no one who can witness the start and ending of their own absence. That's because there is only here now forever. And we are that. We cannot experience what we already are. We are that.

Oneness is the potential for all sounds, but is itself silent. There's only silence sounding but we hear words. In every moment of existence, the whole of creation is constantly emerging from the silence of Oneness.When we slip into the spaces between our thoughts, we become Oneness. Oneness isn't just experiencing something, it's a state of being. Thoughts are what we think we are, but what we think we are comes and goes in what we really are which is constantly here aware of every thought.

“We’re One, we’ve always been One, we’ll always be One, until we think we are not.”
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Re: ''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE

Post by Scott Mayers »

Dontaskme wrote:To assume that 'Nothingness' is impossible - you'd also have to assume that 'Somethingness' is impossible.

Reality can only ever be ''ONE THING'' or ''NO THING'' = Same Difference.

What IS ..what appears to be, is actually No thing.

What IS is without doubt...who knows this? THIS does.

This is the Absolute.

The ONE knowing THIS cannot be known because it is IT

Can a circle get outside the circle without separating itself?

No.

Proof that although Some thing appears to be, it is in all actuality No thing.



Please discuss.
I just posted a reply in your other thread that explains HOW Absolutely NOTHING is the only rational 'origin' factor but that one and infinity co-exist as minimal truths as well.

But note that 'original' may seem odd because it might give you the sense that it BEGAN from some eternity of Nothingness. In reality, Nothingness is like a 'singularity' or APPROACH such that at such an 'origin' it does not even have time and so at exactly its 'origin' one and infinity are 'true'. But one and infinity FOLLOW from Absolute nothingness and NOT the other way around precisely because in Absolute Nothingness, not even LAWS exist. Therefore, it has no compulsion to 'obey' any law that doesn't exist BUT can arbitrarily also allow it since it has nothing to prevent it from being anything.
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Re: ''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE

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Scott Mayers wrote: I just posted a reply in your other thread that explains HOW Absolutely NOTHING is the only rational 'origin' factor but that one and infinity co-exist as minimal truths as well.

But note that 'original' may seem odd because it might give you the sense that it BEGAN from some eternity of Nothingness. In reality, Nothingness is like a 'singularity' or APPROACH such that at such an 'origin' it does not even have time and so at exactly its 'origin' one and infinity are 'true'. But one and infinity FOLLOW from Absolute nothingness and NOT the other way around precisely because in Absolute Nothingness, not even LAWS exist. Therefore, it has no compulsion to 'obey' any law that doesn't exist BUT can arbitrarily also allow it since it has nothing to prevent it from being anything.
I agree.

It's like... I have a sense I exist, that I Am,....but I don't know what that I Am is.

And in this sense of I Am ...thoughts and words arise , and are used by the same sense to describe what this I Am is....even though those thoughts and words have also appeared from the same place that the I sense I exist, but I don't know what the sense of I Am is...

That's why I say only ignorance, or not knowing is original. An idea is a movement within itself going nowhere but where it always is..

http://rachelhackenberg.com/wp-content/ ... -thee1.jpg

Your thoughts on that thought?
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Re: ''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE

Post by Scott Mayers »

Dontaskme wrote:
Scott Mayers wrote: I just posted a reply in your other thread that explains HOW Absolutely NOTHING is the only rational 'origin' factor but that one and infinity co-exist as minimal truths as well.

But note that 'original' may seem odd because it might give you the sense that it BEGAN from some eternity of Nothingness. In reality, Nothingness is like a 'singularity' or APPROACH such that at such an 'origin' it does not even have time and so at exactly its 'origin' one and infinity are 'true'. But one and infinity FOLLOW from Absolute nothingness and NOT the other way around precisely because in Absolute Nothingness, not even LAWS exist. Therefore, it has no compulsion to 'obey' any law that doesn't exist BUT can arbitrarily also allow it since it has nothing to prevent it from being anything.
I agree.

It's like... I have a sense I exist, that I Am,....but I don't know what that I Am is.

And in this sense of I Am ...thoughts and words arise , and are used by the same sense to describe what this I Am is....even though those thoughts and words have also appeared from the same place that the I sense I exist, but I don't know what the sense of I Am is...

That's why I say only ignorance, or not knowing is original. An idea is a movement within itself going nowhere but where it always is..

http://rachelhackenberg.com/wp-content/ ... -thee1.jpg

Your thoughts on that thought?
I've taken a 'broad' foundational approach that included studying the origins of religion too. What is interesting is that if you are careful to look at the details, much of this thinking is embedded in what has turned INTO religion when the original ancients were actually just as 'secular'.

Take "YHWH" from Judaism. This reference for 'god' was actually an 'ineffible' interpretation of Absolute Nothingness as an origin. That is, the original word was the source of the very word meaning the unknown 'source'. YHWY is identical to "Je hovah" which is "Je Ova(l)" meaning "I am the source" from which 'oval' and 'ovum' derive to mean eggs AND to the shape of circular objects that represent ideal shapes. Because the sun was thought of as the most PERFECT such representation of the oval, as a circle, the ancients treated the words relating to describing "that which shapes" (solids) as that perfectly represented by the sun, "Aten", to the Egyptians.

The story in Judaism that relates YHWH 'spoke' to Joseph in the desert. And the question Joseph asked was "who are you?" to which that 'voice' responded, "I am what I am". This was basically just a way of people asking others (stangers) or 'lords' of some place, WHICH background or source do you come from or to what 'culture' do you associate with. The response that was just a way of saying "we all share the same 'source', so it doesn't MATTER what I might label it". As such, YHWH, by many interpretations was something unspeakable like the concept of nothing was because if we derived from it, it seems to contradictory to make sense of it using words. So this became the way it has been interpreted as "ineffable" (that which you can 'speak' of or make sense of using words).

However, NOWADAYS, this interpretation got lost and has become a 'god', like the game telephone. And the nature of it being 'ineffable' turned into a religious mistaken interpretation that it is blasphemous to SPEAK the true name of God. Isn't it interesting how what was 'rational' in one time becomes the delusion of another time simply because others are unable to make sense of the depth of intellectualism originally involved? So even our own discussion here in some future might be falsely interpreted as some future discussion between gods or some other irrational interpretation! :roll:

Aten = the shape of the sun or its 'defining' border, and where Aten is the perfect Subjective form (original), "Atum" is the Objective way to describe things on Earth that are 'formed' or shaped. And this is where the biblical character, "Adam" came from. ...where we get our word, "atom" from, ...where the season representing the 'fall' as "Autumn" comes from. "Eve" actually meant anything that 'followed" and you can see the 'ova' in there too which represents the eggs or Earthly 'sources' akin to the aten (sun). Its interesting to see how everything connects.

Did you know that the initial gods of the Egyptian story began with those like Nun (none), for fluid or 'water', Nut, for the sky as (nothing). These were the ideas also that were the Greek later interpretation of "Chaos" to be the original Titan 'gods'. Chaos = "gas" or the 'fluidity' of the air or "spirit" as was similarly understood. The magic of this air to provide life but appears to be non-existing (another 'nothing'), is why the latter interpretation of Genesis' , "and then the Spirit of God hovered above the waters of below", where the 'waters' are the FLUIDS representing water AND air (the 'waters' above).

So yeah, religion, 'God', etc, all relate to the secular scientific AND logical thinking of the past based on the concepts of something (oneness), nothing (zero), and everything (infinity).
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Re: ''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE

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Scott Mayers wrote:
So yeah, religion, 'God', etc, all relate to the secular scientific AND logical thinking of the past based on the concepts of something (oneness), nothing (zero), and everything (infinity).
Most grateful for your input here Scott.

All is relative to past (dead mind stuff) since nothing is known of the future, and the future is always now, so the future never actually happens. There's only now happening all the time.

The now is the presence of oneness and this doesn't need to question it's own presence to be what it is. This has to be here for a question to be here.. if there was no presence...a question would never arise.

So the question arises who Am I ? That question is a movement arising within the eternal un-moving presence now.

So any questions would be relative only to itself...as the question appears.

Relative questions about the (absolute un-moving presence of now) would be absurd. The now doesn't question itself, it's not an appearance, only the question is an appearance as and when it arises relative to itself. And that's the absurdity of the relative mind. It's asking questions about itself that is already existing prior to the question.

Relating to dead past is the only available way to live now, ... relating to future is dead too, since all future is only ever now.

All questions are relative. The relative mind can ask only questions that relate to itself. Relative questions about the absolute are absurd.
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Re: ''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE

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Beauty wrote: For we have something and we also have nothing. And the two stand absolute. It's a duality not oneness.
The above quoted comparative narrative information has come from you. Is sourced in you. You are the source of all information, therefore all information is you.

Without you what would information be? would it exist?

It obviously needs you to exist...right?

Or, does the you need information to exist? can a you exist without information? ..no because that you wouldn't know, have any information /knowledge it existed.

Neither you nor information can exist independently they are co-dependent for existence to be known.

Existence is whether it's known by you or not. The proof of that is when you are in deep sleep. But for anything to be known there has to be a you there. That you is the mind. The mind is an appearance of pre-existing existence. If pre-existing existence wasn't here, where would the mind of you be? how would you appear, what would you be without a mind?

And you only have one mind...right? ....Or do you have two minds as you seem to be implying when you say... It's is a duality not oneness?
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Re: ''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE

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Beauty wrote:we cannot mix two opposites and say they are one or one and the same thing.
The one defining up in comparison to down is the mind. Up and down have no actual reality, except as ideas formed in the mind, and no body has ever seen a mind... that too is just an idea appearing here, nowhere.
Beauty wrote: If nothing and something were the same then black and white would be the same, dark and light would be the same. Also, if nothing was to become something and vice versa, then we could never go out of existence or come into existence, for we would be forever existent.
There is only ever existence without shape, form, colour, or concept, every thing else is a mentally constructed appearance within it. Therefore nothing is actually existing. It only appears to. It appears to, therefore it is/not.

As for dark and light...where is the dividing line between night and day.. are they not one? ...that night and day appear to be two things is a comparative idea arising in the same place they appear...aka in the mind.

Black and white are concepts, artificially created by the mind which is colourless.
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Re: ''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE

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Beauty wrote:
Let me explain why you are here, who you are, where you are and what you are. It goes as follows:
Earth is like a prison but let's call it exile. In actuality it is Hell. We are all from Heaven due to sinning in thinking there. Interference in another's life with wicked pleasure as intent behind it, is wickedness, and is classified sin. Or in other words wickedness in thinking and/or wickedness in action is sin. Sin brings us down from Heaven into Hell. The sinful dues upon all of us paid, we are back in Heaven. It is quite apparent that if we are wicked here again, then we return to Hell again with a birth & death cycle where life is to learn, not to sin. "For the wages of sin is death." "Know ye not that ye are all Gods, and the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?" We are in Hell. We are classified Devils while we are in Hell, even though we may be morally good now, but due to past sinful dues upon all of us to pay for, we are called Devils in Hell. When we go to Heaven, then we are classified Gods in Heaven. Jesus was a fallen Almighty God, others are fallen Gods here in Hell. "Jesus is risen," we must rise too. "The way" - the way to Heaven, is holiness, no wickedness in thinking and no wickedness in action, or we can also say, all sinful dues paid, we are out of prison/exile/Hell, and back home into Heaven from where we originally are. "I am the way and the truth and the life." The way to Heaven is truth - no wickedness. All sinful dues paid, we have life - eternal life- life in Heaven.
.
Wanted to come back to this post.

What I would like to say regarding what you have quoted above. I think today's human consciousness has moved on from the days where we believed earth is a prison, and that this is hell in which we are devils. This is man-made belief and has no place in modern day human consciousness.

Would you say all those things to your children/grandchildren? what would you imagine a 4 year old child is going to think when it hears those words spoken to it?
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Re: ''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE

Post by Beauty »

TRUTH, I happen to understand is not very well taken, but I also happen to know that truth is explicit - self-explanatory. If the truth I have given is not clear to you, it's not another's fault. :lol:
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Re: ''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE

Post by Beauty »

As for something and nothing, which this thread is actually about, I only want to say this -
No, they are not the same thing, unless we assume formation of energy from nothing, for only then nothing and something could be the same - we come from nothing, are something, and go back to nothing. So if you actually claim that something and nothing are the same, then you would have to prove that energy can form from nothing. What is the definition of nothing? That there ain't nothing in there, and if you try to show formation of energy from there which is to say from nothing, then the definition of nothing changes and it ain't nothing anymore, but is something itself. In which case the two would be the same thing - something only. Something and something, we already know are the same, no need to discuss that. Thus, something and nothing cannot be the same, for their definition I know means that nothing is nothing and something is something, unless you do not understand the definition of nothing and the definition of something, in which case you could claim anything, which I strongly suspect is the case. So in all, I do not agree with you on this that, ''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE, and would not like to argue more on this issue.
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Re: ''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE

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Beauty wrote:As for something and nothing, which this thread is actually about, I only want to say this -
No, they are not the same thing, unless we assume formation of energy from nothing, for only then nothing and something could be the same - we come from nothing, are something, and go back to nothing. So if you actually claim that something and nothing are the same, then you would have to prove that energy can form from nothing. What is the definition of nothing? That there ain't nothing in there, and if you try to show formation of energy from there which is to say from nothing, then the definition of nothing changes and it ain't nothing anymore, but is something itself. In which case the two would be the same thing - something only. Something and something, we already know are the same, no need to discuss that. Thus, something and nothing cannot be the same, for their definition I know means that nothing is nothing and something is something, unless you do not understand the definition of nothing and the definition of something, in which case you could claim anything, which I strongly suspect is the case. So in all, I do not agree with you on this that, ''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE, and would not like to argue more on this issue.
Words are not real.

There is no reality except that which is made of words.

''We ourselves are not an illusory part of Reality; rather are we Reality itself illusorily conceived.''
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Re: ''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE

Post by Dontaskme »

Beauty wrote:TRUTH, I happen to understand is not very well taken, but I also happen to know that truth is explicit - self-explanatory. If the truth I have given is not clear to you, it's not another's fault. :lol:
Oh, I understand, and it's very clear what you're saying.. but myself, I wouldn't have used the words you used.
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