I do not disagree with the thrust of this, except to say that they are all known through the filter of perception like everything else.RG1 wrote:Hi Hobbes, well said! And in general I agree with this statement. BUT, if we wish to be ‘technically’ correct, then there are actually 3 (three) exceptions to this claim. There are 3 things that exist in the ‘objective world’ (i.e. with ‘certainty’) that do not require “subjective filters” (i.e. a subjective view) to confirm/see its existence. We can know these 3 items exist with certainty, beyond that of our ability to subjectively perceive them. These certainties are:Hobbes' Choice wrote:...we can never escape the fact the objective is as humanly constructed as the subjective world and is only seen through each of our subjective filters.
1. The ‘subjectiveness’ itself!
2. Secondly, and contingent upon the existence of ‘experiencing’, an ‘Experiencer’ exists.
3. Thirdly, and again contingent upon the existence of ‘experiencing’, ‘Memory’ exists.
Now, where do we go from here, what else is certain and exists in the ‘objective’ world. It is here at this point where I agree with Hobbes with my certainty #4--
4. Fourthly, Everything Else can ONLY be known to exist through imagination and perceptions; via the ‘subjective’ world, and through the lens of our subjective eyeglasses. "...we can never escape the fact the objective is as humanly constructed as the subjective world and is only seen through each of our subjective filters." --- Hobbes' Choice
Notes:
A. Don’t confuse the ‘experiencer’ (in item #2 above) with the ‘experience of "I"/self-awareness/identity’. These are not the same. One is an objective, logically derived, 'thing', and the other is a 'subjective' experience. The ‘experiencer’ (in item #2) exists in the OBJECTIVE world (via logically derived), and the “I”/self-identity experience exists only in the SUBJECTIVE world (via the subjective experience of self-awareness/identity).
B. Also, it seems to be logically possible that Experiencer and Memory could actually be one-in-the-same.
But applying Hume's fork.
1 is purely in the realm of ideas. Subjectiveness does not exist as a real thing, but only in the way we relate to factual things.
2. That's me - the ground of the possibility of perception. I can kick myself, so can prove myself to be factual.
3. I'd assert this to be factual, as I can stick a bullet in my brain and forget.
4. Yup everything which has to submit to the filter of perception, including that well know 'relation of ideas" the so-called objective world.
There is no doubt that my dog exists really!! You might want to doubt her as merely a figment. But she will insist on licking you to death when you came through the door, and is hard to dismiss.
But as real as she is, you and I cannot conceive of the same dog, though she has her own reality. We both have different experiences of her. This pretty much is true of all things.
This "realist" idealism explains why the world is full of disagreement and conflict.