Who- why- where are we ?

So what's really going on?

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waechter418
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Who- why- where are we ?

Post by waechter418 » Wed Feb 03, 2016 11:03 pm

It seems that since we are aware of ourselves we have been trying to find out who, why & where we are and that many of our religions, cosmologies, philosophies and sciences developed around this quest.

The answers differ widely, see for example neurologists, Buddha, Hegel, astrophysicists, Lao Tse or Christian fundamentalists - yet each insists to have found the right answer, which is understandable, after all, it is not easy to admit that the quest has been in vain and increases our confusion.

What went wrong?

JSS
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Re: Who- why- where are we ?

Post by JSS » Wed Feb 03, 2016 11:49 pm

waechter418 wrote:It seems that since we are aware of ourselves we have been trying to find out who, why & where we are and that many of our religions, cosmologies, philosophies and sciences developed around this quest.

The answers differ widely, see for example neurologists, Buddha, Hegel, astrophysicists, Lao Tse or Christian fundamentalists - yet each insists to have found the right answer, which is understandable, after all, it is not easy to admit that the quest has been in vain and increases our confusion.

What went wrong?
They didn't know how to start.

How tall a building can be built depends on its foundation. An immutable foundation was something none of them knew how to build. So each was limited and the height required was greater than any of them imagined.

Today, it can truly be finally resolved because today we know how to build immutable foundations which allow for the weight of all knowledge to come throughout the entire future without any need to start over (also known as "The End of Days").

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Re: Who- why- where are we ?

Post by Dalek Prime » Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:11 am

waechter418 wrote:It seems that since we are aware of ourselves we have been trying to find out who, why & where we are and that many of our religions, cosmologies, philosophies and sciences developed around this quest.

The answers differ widely, see for example neurologists, Buddha, Hegel, astrophysicists, Lao Tse or Christian fundamentalists - yet each insists to have found the right answer, which is understandable, after all, it is not easy to admit that the quest has been in vain and increases our confusion.

What went wrong?
That's actually a good question, and I'm happy to see that you started it with a question of awareness. Perfect starting point for it, because awareness and self-awareness are obviously just a higher point of consciousness. So then we should ask, is consciousness a blessing or a curse? If it's a blessing, then you can skip to innumerable other questions of existence that will never end, and have as many opinions on them as there are people, eventually getting lost and drowning in them. And this is basically the state of things today, as it was yesterday, and will be tomorrow. On the other hand, if you take the view that it's a curse, the only questions are, should I continue, and should l curse offspring as I've been cursed.

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Greta
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Re: Who- why- where are we ?

Post by Greta » Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:53 am

I agree with JSS that progress is on its way. Those old ideas area humanity's attempt at a Theory of Everything with far less knowledge to draw on than we do today. Good on them for trying, just as we try today, despite the fact that all societies' attempts at working out a TOE are necessarily limited by their place in history's timeline.

The advent of humanity reminds me of the encephalisation process - we seem akin to "the head of life on Earth", where the most concentrated complexity occurs.

Or, for another analogy, we are akin to the executive team of Nature Inc :) - and like many executives, we tend to organise affairs to suit ourselves, giving the "staff" (plants/animals) the bare minimum needed for their support. In time we will most likely rediscover the "triple bottom line" and this time take it more seriously.

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waechter418
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Re: Who- why- where are we ?

Post by waechter418 » Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:49 pm

JSS wrote:
waechter418 wrote:It seems that since we are aware of ourselves we have been trying to find out who, why & where we are and that many of our religions, cosmologies, philosophies and sciences developed around this quest.

The answers differ widely, see for example neurologists, Buddha, Hegel, astrophysicists, Lao Tse or Christian fundamentalists - yet each insists to have found the right answer, which is understandable, after all, it is not easy to admit that the quest has been in vain and increases our confusion.

What went wrong?
They didn't know how to start.

How tall a building can be built depends on its foundation. An immutable foundation was something none of them knew how to build. So each was limited and the height required was greater than any of them imagined.

Today, it can truly be finally resolved because today we know how to build immutable foundations which allow for the weight of all knowledge to come throughout the entire future without any need to start over (also known as "The End of Days").
The claim to build on immutable foundations is as old as religions - modern buildings reach (thanks to the media) impressive heights, but get (as in real estate business) fast replaced. (I personally enjoy living in my self crafted cabin.)

JSS
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Re: Who- why- where are we ?

Post by JSS » Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:08 am

waechter418 wrote:The claim to build on immutable foundations is as old as religions - modern buildings reach (thanks to the media) impressive heights, but get (as in real estate business) fast replaced. (I personally enjoy living in my self crafted cabin.)
That is certainly true, but look how long it took them to learn how to fly.

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Re: Who- why- where are we ?

Post by Dubious » Fri Feb 05, 2016 5:21 am

JSS wrote: Today, it can truly be finally resolved because today we know how to build immutable foundations which allow for the weight of all knowledge to come throughout the entire future without any need to start over (also known as "The End of Days").
A somewhat premature statement...to put it mildly. There was never an age in history that didn't think likewise. People who believe this have to be among the most naive on the planet. Given a critical mass of those who actually believe in this hyperbolized hope something always follows to correct that perception. Restraint, caution and respect for limits due to uncertainties make for far better foundations than the effervescent views of dancing pollyannas.

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Re: Who- why- where are we ?

Post by JSS » Fri Feb 05, 2016 5:29 am

Dubious wrote:A somewhat premature statement...to put it mildly. There was never an age in history that didn't think likewise. People who believe this have to be among the most naive on the planet. Given a critical mass of those who actually believe in this hyperbolized hope something always follows to correct that perception. Restraint, caution and respect for limits due to uncertainties make for far better foundations than the effervescent views of dancing pollyannas.
Today we know how to prove things far beyond mere testimony of witnesses and/or speculative theories. We can now know that we know that we know, void of any presumptions whatsoever. If I know how to do it, I am sure I am not the only one.

But I understand why you are Dubious. 8)

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Re: Who- why- where are we ?

Post by Dubious » Fri Feb 05, 2016 5:50 am

JSS wrote:
Dubious wrote:A somewhat premature statement...to put it mildly. There was never an age in history that didn't think likewise. People who believe this have to be among the most naive on the planet. Given a critical mass of those who actually believe in this hyperbolized hope something always follows to correct that perception. Restraint, caution and respect for limits due to uncertainties make for far better foundations than the effervescent views of dancing pollyannas.
Today we know how to prove things far beyond mere testimony of witnesses and/or speculative theories. We can now know that we know that we know, void of any presumptions whatsoever. If I know how to do it, I am sure I am not the only one.

But I understand why you are Dubious. 8)
In that case we wouldn't need lawyers and theorists since proof is forthcoming for whatever requires it. It would be great if we could drop the former especially. Since you know how to do it, congratulations are in order. I never encountered anyone who mastered it...except on internet forums.

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Re: Who- why- where are we ?

Post by JSS » Fri Feb 05, 2016 6:02 am

Dubious wrote:In that case we wouldn't need lawyers and theorists since proof is forthcoming for whatever requires it. It would be great if we could drop the former especially.
There is a difference between proving how things can happen or why they do happen in general and exactly what did happen on any particular day. The lawyers are for arguing what happened "that day" (and for obfuscating all potential truth completely out of the equation).
Dubious wrote:Since you know how to do it, congratulations are in order. I never encountered anyone who mastered it...except on internet forums.
I'll take that for the sarcasm that I am certain it was intended to be. 8)

I expect to be explaining it soon. Then you can see for yourself .. assuming that I can communicate it properly .. of which I am dubious.

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Re: Who- why- where are we ?

Post by waechter418 » Fri Feb 05, 2016 10:27 pm

Our capacity of prognosis has definitely improved, but not our ability to handle the results (see environment, climate, economy, wars) might be because of an uncertainty of who & why we are - or that we gave our self "wrong" answers - but most probably because our logic and reference-frameworks make us act strange (irrational, devoid of common sense)

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Re: Who- why- where are we ?

Post by JSS » Fri Feb 05, 2016 11:56 pm

waechter418 wrote:Our capacity of prognosis has definitely improved, but not our ability to handle the results (see environment, climate, economy, wars) might be because of an uncertainty of who & why we are - or that we gave our self "wrong" answers - but most probably because our logic and reference-frameworks make us act strange (irrational, devoid of common sense)
Power does not equate to wisdom. :(

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Re: Who- why- where are we ?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Sat Feb 06, 2016 12:02 am

waechter418 wrote:Our capacity of prognosis has definitely improved, but not our ability to handle the results (see environment, climate, economy, wars) might be because of an uncertainty of who & why we are - or that we gave our self "wrong" answers - but most probably because our logic and reference-frameworks make us act strange (irrational, devoid of common sense)
We act in spite of or against our frameworks. One of the greatest paradigms for prognosis is rational actor theory which in practice is all but useless. At heart we are motived by our passions, which rationality is enslaved to, and by the instruction of our feelings are rationales are forged.
And whilst our power to despoil the earth continues so does our musing on the impossible dream of leaving this planet; a most dangerous an unfortunate myth.

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Re: Who- why- where are we ?

Post by waechter418 » Sat Feb 06, 2016 2:36 pm

Our religions are escape-myths too.

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Re: Who- why- where are we ?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Sat Feb 06, 2016 2:44 pm

waechter418 wrote:Our religions are escape-myths too.
True. And possibly far more dangerous.

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