What is Space?

So what's really going on?

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Dontaskme
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Re: What is Space?

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:12 am

Justintruth wrote:
Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:25 pm
For example, if I believe I am seeing a red dot on a white background but there is no sensory pathway but rather an hallucination is occurring and I am only red dot on a white background seeing then there is an ILLUSION present.
All dimensions of reality are hidden within each other as multiple layers of conscious states.

There is only ONE CONSCIOUSNESS aware of every state simultaneously ...To see division, to see ''other'' ''edge'' or '' boundary'' is an hallucination of the brain...witnessed only by itself the SEEING observer.

The observer cannot be seen, the observer is the seeing.....just as we cannot know the space in which we are because we are it.

The ''I'' that is aware is the same ''I'' that knows.The ''I'' that knows is the ''I'' that is known. (IT'S ALL ONE SEAMLESS REALITY)


Now I don't even know why I asked the question, but was hoping to get others to see through the subject ''I'' of duality to directly experience the emptiness that is source itself.

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Justintruth
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Re: What is Space?

Post by Justintruth » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:22 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:12 am
Justintruth wrote:
Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:25 pm
For example, if I believe I am seeing a red dot on a white background but there is no sensory pathway but rather an hallucination is occurring and I am only red dot on a white background seeing then there is an ILLUSION present.
All dimensions of reality are hidden within each other as multiple layers of conscious states.

There is only ONE CONSCIOUSNESS aware of every state simultaneously ...To see division, to see ''other'' ''edge'' or '' boundary'' is an hallucination of the brain...witnessed only by itself the SEEING observer.

The observer cannot be seen, the observer is the seeing.....just as we cannot know the space in which we are because we are it.

The ''I'' that is aware is the same ''I'' that knows.The ''I'' that knows is the ''I'' that is known. (IT'S ALL ONE SEAMLESS REALITY)


Now I don't even know why I asked the question, but was hoping to get others to see through the subject ''I'' of duality to directly experience the emptiness that is source itself.

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You are using phrases like: "dimensions of reality" "hidden" "multiple layers of conscious states" that can be interpreted in very many ways that are wrong. For example I might say "You are wrong. There are no multiple layers of conscious states All is One." or "There is no dimension to reality, in order to have dimension one would need separation".

What you are experiencing, that "other" modes of being are hallucination and only one is true is a very typical reaction to mystical experience. While there is some truth at the bottom of it the typical language that is used that to see "division" or "edge" as hallucination is at best easily misinterpreted. They are not hallucinations. Nature is real. And as I pointed out even when directly experiencing the "ONE SEAMLESS REALITY", if you pay close attention there will be differences - not differences of one reality from another but experiencing experiencing experiencing is experiencing experiencing experiencing differently. Time-ing occurs. You fail to see the temporal structure. Not to mention your experience versus mine.

If our descriptions of experiencing are to be made more precise we must give up using the term hallucination and rather open a new category of ontological interpretation which is capable of distinguishing what-ing from that-ing and see exactly what is happening when one is subject to the hallucination that you describe and when one is not and to develop criteria or a sense of the degree of validity that these experiences have. You can't do that by this simple language you are using.

We will one day be able to describe exactly what happens when one face of a line drawing of a cube pops back and the other forward or when a space with things in it suddenly becomes experiencing being itself.

We will then be able to do the most important thing and understand how these experiencings relate to value, truth and even our destiny.

But we cannot begin to frame those issues until we abandon overly simplistic thought that does not accurately capture the range of our experiencing.

You say "Now I don't know why I asked the question..." In a sense it is the most important part. There is a whole tradition of silence and there is a tradition of wanting to communicate it so others will be relieved of their suffering. The way language and knowledge play are key. For example "That about which we cannot speak we should remain silent" (Wittgenstein) has ethical interpretations. There is an ethics that emerges in talking. I have never been very convinced by those who say we should remain silent. On the other hand I do realize that speech can have a kind of profanation effect. Perhaps it is better not to speak unless moved to by other than the will to power.

Good luck. I am still convinced your language is not accurate. I think you are wrong about boundaries being hallucinations. I don't think they are just "there" and understand the way being can be assigned in different ways but still -essentially- vice -existentially- there are differences in nature.

Justintruth
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Re: What is Space?

Post by Justintruth » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:41 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:05 am

.....edges are illusory because they are the contents of an edge-less boundary-less seeing.
Perhaps it is better to say that an edge-less boundary-less seeing can be edge-less boundary-less edge seeing or edge-less boundary-less no edge seeing, depending on the circumstances, and that that is a real difference in the nature of edge-less boundary-less edge seeing and edge-less boundary-less no edge seeing that is not the difference between edge-less boundary-less seeing and seeing. The difference is not an hallucination even if it invalidates certain objective seeing in certain ways. The fact of the edges presence or absence does not negate the "edge-less boundary-less - ness of seeing itself. It is the meaning of "an edge" that is affected not its real presence in nature.

To put it simply, sit two novices one in front of a Japanese flag and another in front of a Swiss flag and assume that some how it turns out they both achieve enlightenment while sitting there. There is still a difference between their experiencing. Their experiencing is transformed but there is still a real difference between their experiencings that is not the fact of their enlightenment but of the circumstances in which it occurs.

The Oneness of Being is an ontological experience not an essential one and it does not invalidate descriptions of essential differences.

At first I saw a tree and it was a tree. Then I saw a tree and it was the Tao. Then I saw a tree and it was a tree.

It is important to understand the last step.

Dontaskme
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Re: What is Space?

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:35 pm

Justintruth wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:41 am

At first I saw a tree and it was a tree. Then I saw a tree and it was the Tao. Then I saw a tree and it was a tree.

It is important to understand the last step.
Our only experience is the state of awareness in which the world of things appear. We cannot experience directly the world of things, worldly objects are hallucinations of the seer. The seer is not an hallucination, the seer is real. But the seer has no direct experience of what it sees. Neither does it have any experience of itself as the seer...there is ONLY the seer awareness experiencing.


We talk about a tree as if it's a real objective thing existing outside of our awareness...but there is no direct experience of a tree or any other object, or even the experience of being a person...we can only experience the direct sense of being awareness...there is no thing existing apart from this immediate awareness.

Since objects cannot be directly experienced, their existence being hallucinations of the brain. This does not mean they do not exist, they exist as a dream image exists, the fundamental content of a dream image is emptiness ..every object is an image of the imageless.



.

Dontaskme
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Re: What is Space?

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:54 pm

Justintruth wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:22 am

Good luck. I am still convinced your language is not accurate. I think you are wrong about boundaries being hallucinations.
Language is illusory anyway, so it's never going to describe accurately what the mystics see with their inner eye. But since language is all we've got to communicate this, it's up to the reader to discern what the words are pointing to. Reading is not all about what the words do say and mean literally, but what they don't say, rather, what they convey hidden between the lines.

The problem is, how is the seer going to describe seeing?....that's like how can a brain experience itself as brain...there's just no such experience as a brain braining, these are all conceptually construed ideas within the brain itself known not by the brain, but by awareness, awareness being the ONLY experience that a brain exists at all.

Justintruth wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:22 am
I don't think they are just "there" and understand the way being can be assigned in different ways but still -essentially- vice -existentially- there are differences in nature.
Differences are purely conceptual, they have no existential reality in and of themselves. Differences are existential within the dream of separation, illusions appearing real as the dream is real, as the dreamer is real..

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waechter418
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Re: What is Space?

Post by waechter418 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:01 am

At times we are latecomers to the present.

Justintruth
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Re: What is Space?

Post by Justintruth » Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:55 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:54 pm

Differences are purely conceptual, they have no existential reality in and of themselves. Differences are existential within the dream of separation, illusions appearing real as the dream is real, as the dreamer is real..
Differences are not purely conceptual, they have existential reality in and of themselves. There is a difference between a rock and a feather and that is not just conceptual.

Differences are existential when being is allocated in experiencing. This has nothing to do with dreaming or illusion. It is a real faculty of Homo Sapien Sapien's that they can objectify this way and it is a real aspect of their experiencing that much of it conforms to objective modeling to a high but not complete degree of accuracy. An objectifiable world is different technically from one that is not and that difference is not the way it is or is not objectified. It has to do with the nature of the sensory experiencing and the way it correlates across individuals. It is not a completely arbitrary process. If I ask you to go into my sock drawer and get me the blue pair and you attempt it, the outcome will depend on whether there are socks there or not. If I put a mousetrap there and you don't know it then you might get sore fingers. Your fingers being sore will not be part of the dream you had last night. Nor will they be an illusion the truth of which, perhaps that your fingers don't really hurt, you might find out latter. There are illusions as any magician knows but not all experience of objects is illusory. Sometimes there are more that one way that objectification can be done but that is unusual and further investigation usually rules out one or the other.

How do you decide to call something an illusion? You must have two different experiences, the one of the illusion and the one of the truth that the illusion masks. In human ontological biology you can create the experience that things have their own being and that one thing is different than another, and both are present in space, which is nothing, and you can then come up with and inventory of what things are on a table. In human ontological biology you can also transcend this approach and see mystically an All of Being and the *fact* of being is then seen completely as unrelated to any assignment of being to what is. Then it is often claimed that the original inventory was an illusion. In a sense it was, but it was only an ontological illusion, there are still the essential reality of the character of the sensory experiencing. There is a difference in becoming enlightened in front of a red wall, and becoming enlightened in front of a blue wall. That does not have anything to do with whether it is a wall or the Tao.

Both the wall and the Tao are ontological possibilities and you will have to defend the validity of one over another instead of just pronouncing one an illusion but it is irrelevant to my point. My point is that differences occur in nature not just in existence.

The essential reality has real features of its nature that are not either of the ontological interpretations - they are essential reality not existential reality - ontic, not ontological, having to do with what is and nothing to do with the fact that it is. They are silent on the kind of divisions or absence of them that you speak

Failure to see this will cause you to continue to make statements easily interpreted as simply false. They give a bad name to mysticism.

Dontaskme
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Re: What is Space?

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:40 pm

Sensation is the awareness of contrast. The essential feeling of BEING is the same. The objective experience is different.

Without awareness everything is nothing. With awareness nothing is everything.

Same Difference.

.

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Harbal
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Re: What is Space?

Post by Harbal » Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:03 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:40 pm


Without awareness everything is nothing. With awareness nothing is everything.

.
Yet another gem of wisdom to contemplate on.

Dubious
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Re: What is Space?

Post by Dubious » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:30 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:40 pm
Sensation is the awareness of contrast. The essential feeling of BEING is the same. The objective experience is different.

Without awareness everything is nothing. With awareness nothing is everything.

Same Difference.

.
Any idea when you plan to launch from planet Earth now that you've potentially achieved escape velocity with your hyper metaphysical revelations? You clearly have the means to go where no one has gone before!

Belinda
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Re: What is Space?

Post by Belinda » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:17 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Sensation is the awareness of contrast. The essential feeling of BEING is the same.
If you always experience nothing but the same sensation, or even more so sensory deprivation, you would eventually hallucinate.

The essential feeling of Being is the same as what? I presume that you mean that one individual essentially feels what another is feeling . This is not true because individuals differ from each other as to how they feel about all sorts of ideas and sensations.

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Harbal
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Re: What is Space?

Post by Harbal » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:24 pm

Belinda wrote:
Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:17 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Sensation is the awareness of contrast. The essential feeling of BEING is the same.
If you always experience nothing but the same sensation, or even more so sensory deprivation, you would eventually hallucinate.
I think Dontaskme passed "eventually" quite some time ago.

Dubious
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Re: What is Space?

Post by Dubious » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:04 pm

Belinda wrote:
Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:17 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Sensation is the awareness of contrast. The essential feeling of BEING is the same.
If you always experience nothing but the same sensation, or even more so sensory deprivation, you would eventually hallucinate.
...very true and not to be forgotten. A living mind cannot ever be without content; the merit or absurdity of it has no relevance in such a case. Even in sleep we dream absurdities. It's impossible for a mind to be devoid of all thoughts...not to mention, what would be the purpose of such a vacuum. A mind capable of such a feat is one that can simulate death which no living human ever accomplished!

Dontaskme
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Re: What is Space?

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:01 am

Belinda wrote:
Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:17 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Sensation is the awareness of contrast. The essential feeling of BEING is the same.
If you always experience nothing but the same sensation, or even more so sensory deprivation, you would eventually hallucinate.
Yes you would, and is why there is a contrast button - the on/off switch between the sensation of being awake/alive as opposed to being unconscious. There are two sides to BEINGNESS.
An unconscious consciousness is a contradiction in terms, but could not have been any other way. When awareness knows sensation consciousness/mind is born.
Belinda wrote:
Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:17 pm
The essential feeling of Being is the same as what? I presume that you mean that one individual essentially feels what another is feeling .
The essential feeling of Being is the same for every apparent 'individual' ..we all share the same sense of being alive. The seer looking from my eye is the same seer looking from every other eye. The same sense of being alive is the same for every living creature. We all have the same conscious awareness.

However, what arises in THAT essential BEINGNESS or AWARENESS is a different experience. The experience creates the sensation of being aware. When a thought says I am aware.. duality is born, aka mind is born aka knowledge. The unconscious becomes conscious.

We cannot feel what another one is feeling, or know what they know, simply because there is nothing outside of consciousness except what consciousness projects to be (out-there) in the form of images of other things...but these images are inseparable from the consciousness that is projecting them...seeing them, knowing them, feeling them, tasting, and smelling them.

There is nothing outside of consciousness except it's own self reflecting projections -consciousness is like a mirror ball in that respect projecting itself as if there existed many consciousnesses. The proof that there is only ONE CONSCIOUSNESS is obvious in that it is impossible to know or see the world of another. You can only project AN IDEA OF OTHER... and what we believe about ''others'' is always about ourselves, the original knowing self.

Belinda wrote:
Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:17 pm
This is not true because individuals differ from each other as to how they feel about all sorts of ideas and sensations.
There is no individual, except as an illusory ''I'' thought within the same one awareness that is everything. There is only one consciousness experiencing itself as an individual in the experience of ''I'' ..but it's just a thought.

''I'' is an experience within consciousness. Consciousness itself is not an experience because EVERYTHING is consciousness. The thought 'I am consciousness' is an illusion arising in what already exists prior to the thought and this existence is essential for a thought to even arise in the first place.

All thought is different, but the source of thought is the same.

.

surreptitious57
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Re: What is Space?

Post by surreptitious57 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:36 am

Dontaskme wrote:
There is nothing outside of consciousness except its self reflecting projections consciousness is like a mirror ball in that respect projecting itself as if there existed many consciousnesses. The proof that there is only ONE CONSCIOUSNESS is obvious in that it is impossible to know or see the world of another. You can only project AN IDEA OF OTHER ... and what we believe about others is always about ourselves
So are all consciousnesses simply part of the one CONSCIOUSNESS
When human beings become extinct what will happen to CONSCIOUSNESS. Will it carry on existing or will it become extinct also
Did CONSCIOUSNESS only come into existence when human beings came into existence or has it like the Universe always existed

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