Good Translation for Plato's Republic?
Re: Good Translation for Plato's Republic?
Hat-tip to Melchior for catching my mistake.
You're correct, sir. I quoted Jowett's rendition but mistakenly attributed it to Lee. I'll make the correction in my post.
You're correct, sir. I quoted Jowett's rendition but mistakenly attributed it to Lee. I'll make the correction in my post.
Re: Good Translation for Plato's Republic?
I didn't mean to suggest that English translations of ancient Greek are actually literal. As I said, my advice to any reader would be to lean toward literality if given the choice. By pursuing a literal translation Bloom intended to "emancipate" the reader "from the tyranny of the translator and thus permit the reader "to discover the subtleties of the elusive original." He admits in his introductory remarks to The Republic that he may have been unsuccessful in this attempt; but I don't know that we can expect anything more from ordinary men, eminent though they may be. Out of curiosity, what is it about Bloom's approach that you find intolerable?Melchior wrote:Bloom's ideas of translation are entirely wrong, and "literal" translations are a farce. His translations of the Republic should be banned.
Re: Good Translation for Plato's Republic?
Why on earth would you advise any reader "to lean toward literality if given the choice"? What is the benefit? Let me tell you: there isn't any.i_another wrote:I didn't mean to suggest that English translations of ancient Greek are actually literal. As I said, my advice to any reader would be to lean toward literality if given the choice. By pursuing a literal translation Bloom intended to "emancipate" the reader "from the tyranny of the translator and thus permit the reader "to discover the subtleties of the elusive original." He admits in his introductory remarks to The Republic that he may have been unsuccessful in this attempt; but I don't know that we can expect anything more from ordinary men, eminent though they may be. Out of curiosity, what is it about Bloom's approach that you find intolerable?Melchior wrote:Bloom's ideas of translation are entirely wrong, and "literal" translations are a farce. His translations of the Republic should be banned.
That statement of his that you quoted is sheer idiocy. I have written a paper on this very claim that I would be glad to share with you. Send me a message and include your e-mail and I will send it to you. Bloom is indirectly responsible for numerous horrible translations by people who accept the nonsense that he spouts. Bloom is what amounts to a cultural terrorist.
Re: Good Translation for Plato's Republic?
I'd be happy to help gladden you, Melchior. Send away.
(This paper didn't happen to appear in the 1977 volume of Political Theory, did it?)
(This paper didn't happen to appear in the 1977 volume of Political Theory, did it?)
Re: Good Translation for Plato's Republic?
Nope, not me!i_another wrote:I'd be happy to help gladden you, Melchior. Send away.
(This paper didn't happen to appear in the 1977 volume of Political Theory, did it?)
Re: Good Translation for Plato's Republic?
The Griffith translation may be worth exploring.
Re: Good Translation for Plato's Republic?
Bloom's translation is ridicules see example below..
TRANSLATED BY ALLAN BLOOM:
"And in many other places, don't we," I said, "notice that, when desires force someone contrary to calculation, he reproaches himself and his spirit is roused against that in him which is doing the forcing; and, just as though there were two parties at faction, such a man's spirit becomes the ally of speech? But as for its making common cause with the desires to do what speech has declared must not be done, I suppose you'd say you had never noticed anything of the kind happening in yourself, nor, I suppose, in anyone else.
Translated by Benjamin Jowett:
And are there not many other cases in which we observe that when a man's desires violently prevail over his reason, he reviles himself, and is angry at the violence within him, and that in this struggle, which is like the struggle of factions in a State, his spirit is on the side of his reason;—but for the passionate or spirited element to take part with the desires when reason decides that she should not be opposed, is a sort of thing which I believe that you never observed occurring in yourself, nor, as I should imagine, in any one else?
TRANSLATED BY ALLAN BLOOM:
"And in many other places, don't we," I said, "notice that, when desires force someone contrary to calculation, he reproaches himself and his spirit is roused against that in him which is doing the forcing; and, just as though there were two parties at faction, such a man's spirit becomes the ally of speech? But as for its making common cause with the desires to do what speech has declared must not be done, I suppose you'd say you had never noticed anything of the kind happening in yourself, nor, I suppose, in anyone else.
Translated by Benjamin Jowett:
And are there not many other cases in which we observe that when a man's desires violently prevail over his reason, he reviles himself, and is angry at the violence within him, and that in this struggle, which is like the struggle of factions in a State, his spirit is on the side of his reason;—but for the passionate or spirited element to take part with the desires when reason decides that she should not be opposed, is a sort of thing which I believe that you never observed occurring in yourself, nor, as I should imagine, in any one else?
Re: Good Translation for Plato's Republic?
HE-Comm wrote:Bloom's translation is ridicules see example below..
TRANSLATED BY ALLAN BLOOM:
"And in many other places, don't we," I said, "notice that, when desires force someone contrary to calculation, he reproaches himself and his spirit is roused against that in him which is doing the forcing; and, just as though there were two parties at faction, such a man's spirit becomes the ally of speech? But as for its making common cause with the desires to do what speech has declared must not be done, I suppose you'd say you had never noticed anything of the kind happening in yourself, nor, I suppose, in anyone else.
Translated by Benjamin Jowett:
And are there not many other cases in which we observe that when a man's desires violently prevail over his reason, he reviles himself, and is angry at the violence within him, and that in this struggle, which is like the struggle of factions in a State, his spirit is on the side of his reason;—but for the passionate or spirited element to take part with the desires when reason decides that she should not be opposed, is a sort of thing which I believe that you never observed occurring in yourself, nor, as I should imagine, in any one else?
Bloom is a moron!!!!!!! How can anyone read that crap? It's not even English!!!!!
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Re: Good Translation for Plato's Republic?
Melchior! I knew I recognized that spleen-venting vitriol, and your later comments confirmed it. You're the guy who used to argue with all the good Amazon reviews of West's Four Texts.
Bloom is a fine translation, folks. If you don't like Bloom, try Sachs. Jowett is beautiful, I grant, but it is not reliable enough for the Greekless reader to use in study. It's as simple as that.
Bloom is a fine translation, folks. If you don't like Bloom, try Sachs. Jowett is beautiful, I grant, but it is not reliable enough for the Greekless reader to use in study. It's as simple as that.
Re: Good Translation for Plato's Republic?
"A fine translation"? Bullshit! You haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about! You are totally clueless about what a translation can and cannot do. I'm sick and tired of moronic academics like you, who don't have the faintest knowledge of translation, spouting your ignorance. Bloom is a cultural terrorist! His translation is not even readable! West should be prosecuted for fraud! How he holds an academic position is beyond comprehension, and in saying that I'm being kind! I will be glad to send you my paper on the subject to show you how formal equivalence is hopelessly inadequate as a translation methodstutterin' steve wrote:Melchior! I knew I recognized that spleen-venting vitriol, and your later comments confirmed it. You're the guy who used to argue with all the good Amazon reviews of West's Four Texts.
Bloom is a fine translation, folks. If you don't like Bloom, try Sachs. Jowett is beautiful, I grant, but it is not reliable enough for the Greekless reader to use in study. It's as simple as that.
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Re: Good Translation for Plato's Republic?
Can I get a copy, too? I'm interested in what you have to say regarding translations.Melchior wrote:"A fine translation"? Bullshit! You haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about! You are totally clueless about what a translation can and cannot do. I'm sick and tired of moronic academics like you, who don't have the faintest knowledge of translation, spouting your ignorance. Bloom is a cultural terrorist! His translation is not even readable! West should be prosecuted for fraud! How he holds an academic position is beyond comprehension, and in saying that I'm being kind! I will be glad to send you my paper on the subject to show you how formal equivalence is hopelessly inadequate as a translation methodstutterin' steve wrote:Melchior! I knew I recognized that spleen-venting vitriol, and your later comments confirmed it. You're the guy who used to argue with all the good Amazon reviews of West's Four Texts.
Bloom is a fine translation, folks. If you don't like Bloom, try Sachs. Jowett is beautiful, I grant, but it is not reliable enough for the Greekless reader to use in study. It's as simple as that.
Re: Good Translation for Plato's Republic?
E-mail address?WanderingLands wrote:Can I get a copy, too? I'm interested in what you have to say regarding translations.Melchior wrote:"A fine translation"? Bullshit! You haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about! You are totally clueless about what a translation can and cannot do. I'm sick and tired of moronic academics like you, who don't have the faintest knowledge of translation, spouting your ignorance. Bloom is a cultural terrorist! His translation is not even readable! West should be prosecuted for fraud! How he holds an academic position is beyond comprehension, and in saying that I'm being kind! I will be glad to send you my paper on the subject to show you how formal equivalence is hopelessly inadequate as a translation methodstutterin' steve wrote:Melchior! I knew I recognized that spleen-venting vitriol, and your later comments confirmed it. You're the guy who used to argue with all the good Amazon reviews of West's Four Texts.
Bloom is a fine translation, folks. If you don't like Bloom, try Sachs. Jowett is beautiful, I grant, but it is not reliable enough for the Greekless reader to use in study. It's as simple as that.
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Re: Good Translation for Plato's Republic?
I'll PM you right now.Melchior wrote:
E-mail address?
Re: Good Translation for Plato's Republic?
WanderingLands wrote:I'll PM you right now.Melchior wrote:
E-mail address?
Sent.
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Re: Good Translation for Plato's Republic?
Thanks - I got it, and now I'll read it.