another psychiatric diagnosis under my belt

Can philosophers help resolve the real problems that people have in their lives?

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Kayla
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Re: another psychiatric diagnosis under my belt

Post by Kayla »

reasonvemotion wrote: They may be born on the same day but twins are unique, individual people and it’s inevitable that some day soon one will make the team, win the science award, or receive acceptance at a prestigious college. Puberty is now in full force and menstruation will occur if not already. I think separate beds, or separate rooms, if it is possible, should now be considered.
this may be a good point to switch from talking about specifics to talking about generalities

i have discussed being twins and the pressures involved with other twins

it does seem that if twins of opposite gender who are 'excessively' close get the most pressure from the outside concerning being too close

no one seems to worry if twin girls especially identical twin girls never develop their own identity or ever appear apart

but from the reseach i have done there simply is no evidence that being a twin or being too close to ones twin causes any negative outcomes - although it may exaggerate conditions that are known to cause problems later on in life - eg physical and emotional abuse

so if for instance twins decide to continue sharing a room or even a bed past where people consider it appropriate - there simply is no evidence that this is a source of problems - although it is unfortunate that the act of sleeping is so firmly associated in most peoples' minds with the act of sex
artisticsolution
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Re: another psychiatric diagnosis under my belt

Post by artisticsolution »

reasonvemotion wrote:Artisticsolution
That's my whole point Reasonvemotion...you don't know....no one can know for sure. So why do you say Kayla would 'overcome her co-dependency and strike out on her own' if she continued seeing her therapist, if you don't really know?


They may be born on the same day but twins are unique, individual people and it’s inevitable that some day soon one will make the team, win the science award, or receive acceptance at a prestigious college. Puberty is now in full force and menstruation will occur if not already. I think separate beds, or separate rooms, if it is possible, should now be considered.

As this discussion is bordering on sensitive information and Kayla's privacy the reason I said "I dont know" is due to further information would be needed to expand on an opinion of the questions you ask and as I was discussing exclusively K's case, I dont feel it appropriate to discuss online, she has her therapist for that.
But reasonvemotion....every question I asked cannot be answered with any certainty no matter if we knew all the specifics or not...whether we took action or not. There is just no telling what outcome would come about with whatever method we tried. That is my point. Don't you understand, when it comes to psychology, there is no way of knowing if it will make for a better outcome or not. We might as well use a horoscope or myer briggs test to determine the 'correct' action to take.

Human behavior is a crap shoot....however...if the truth be told....in all honesty...

Honesty is the best policy....at least when it comes to admitting that no one has all the answers. Just suppose if we said, "Psychology believes that separating twins is the correct action for their well being...however, we don't have enough evidence of that yet."

I think eventually, people would build up more realistic expectations, and know that any action we take will not necessarily result in a better outcome. And if our goal is a mentally healthy civilization, then I think being honest about this is not only practical but it is also good for the awareness of one's surroundings as it applies to our gullibility of following authority blindly...without question.

Psychology is not an exact science. Any pretense that it claims to have in an authoritarian manner simply is dishonest. Not only is it dishonest, it is downright dangerous to our well being as it is divisive to our natural state of being. It creates anxiety where there is none by making us believe in a dishonest generalization in order to control society by cookie cutter fashion. It creates anxiety because it dulls our senses and makes us suspicious of each others motives...it does this by taking perfectly innocent and/or natural human action/behavior, and categorizing it as abnormal. This leaves the suspicious a good excuse to do exactly what they have always desired...and that is to have their authority control their world.
reasonvemotion
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Re: another psychiatric diagnosis under my belt

Post by reasonvemotion »

Kayla
so if for instance twins decide to continue sharing a room or even a bed past where people consider it appropriate - there simply is no evidence that this is a source of problems - although it is unfortunate that the act of sleeping is so firmly associated in most peoples' minds with the act of sex



I am not referring to the physical changes exclusively that take place during puberty. I dont recall ever referring to inappropriate sex concerning yourself and your brother. I was thinking more of the psychology of the changes experienced at puberty. For example, you may become moody, you dont want to talk to anyone, or that people at home or school are really annoying, or you might just want to hide away. Puberty and privacy......this is all part of growing up and I don't think twins are excluded from these changes.
reasonvemotion
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Re: another psychiatric diagnosis under my belt

Post by reasonvemotion »

Artisticsolution
Psychology is not an exact science. Any pretense that it claims to have in an authoritarian manner simply is dishonest. Not only is it dishonest, it is downright dangerous to our well being as it is divisive to our natural state of being. It creates anxiety where there is none by making us believe in a dishonest generalization in order to control society by cookie cutter fashion. It creates anxiety because it dulls our senses and makes us suspicious of each others motives...it does this by taking perfectly innocent and/or natural human action/behavior, and categorizing it as abnormal. This leaves the suspicious a good excuse to do exactly what they have always desired...and that is to have their authority control their world.


This sounds like disappointment and disillusionment from personal experience.
artisticsolution
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Re: another psychiatric diagnosis under my belt

Post by artisticsolution »

reasonvemotion wrote:
This sounds like disappointment and disillusionment from personal experience.
My personal feelings have nothing to do with the questions I presented.

All I am asking is how can we know that psychology works towards better mental health?
chaz wyman
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Re: another psychiatric diagnosis under my belt

Post by chaz wyman »

artisticsolution wrote:
reasonvemotion wrote:
This sounds like disappointment and disillusionment from personal experience.
My personal feelings have nothing to do with the questions I presented.

All I am asking is how can we know that psychology works towards better mental health?
It does not pretend to. Psychology is about understanding mental processes.

Psychiatry does make that its aim, however.
Even the most discredited treatments have had some measurable effect, though many also have bad consequences, like most treatments in medicine you have to balance the positive effect against the undesirable (side-)effects.
My own experience with my brother is powerful evidence that there is progress in treatment. He used to rely on Chlorpromazine and Procyclidine drugs that had an immediate positive effect, but gave short relief as the undesirable effects built up in his body such as sensitivity to light, lethargy and tiredness.
His life has been transformed by Clozapine which he has had for about 8 years making him able to life his own life.
artisticsolution
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Re: another psychiatric diagnosis under my belt

Post by artisticsolution »

artisticsolution wrote: All I am asking is how can we know that psychology works towards better mental health?
C:It does not pretend to. Psychology is about understanding mental processes.

AS: Chaz, you are correct, of course....but most people do not see it that way...they see psychology as some sort of cure for mental illness...at least in America. According to wikipedia psychology does try to promote better mental health and is a scientific method based of general principles:

"Psychology is the study of the mind, occurring partly via the study of behavior.[1][2] Grounded in scientific method,[1][2] psychology has the immediate goal of understanding individuals and groups by both establishing general principles and researching specific cases,[3][4] and for many it ultimately aims to benefit society.

I just question it's ability to do so by "scientific method" as each individual is different and what benefits one may not benefit the other AND what harms one may not harm the other. It just seems that is Kayla's case, there is no evidence that remaining close to her brother could harm her...even if it was harmful to others. In fact, it may be more harmful to remove their closeness before she is ready. Of course there is no way to know until we view the outcome by hindsight.

I agree to what you have to say about medication, as that is a method which can change a persons mental health and appears to be a more practical scientific method found through research. And although it may not be fool proof...they are less likely to be voo doo/witch doctor/ astrology type cures such as looking at ink blots and the like. Those type cures amount to brainwashing, and while effective to control the masses behavior, we have no real evidence that the masses aren't in worse mental health that if they had never been brainwashed to begin with.

Take religion as an example or mass brainwashing....there is no real evidence that the world would be more or less evil without God...as it seems there is alot of 'evil' that goes on in his name. We simply don't know what would happen if God was never introduced. Could be worse...could be better. Same with Psychology and behavioral suggestions...the cure could be worse than the "disease".
reasonvemotion
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Re: another psychiatric diagnosis under my belt

Post by reasonvemotion »

The question asked by many is how does pyschology help people. Therapists use their knowledge of the human mind and behavior in many ways and quite often specialize in a specific area. Remedial elements of psychotherapy are difficult to understand as each patient has a unique narrative and there is very little difference between the incertitude and the hope of pyschotherapy as is there in our own lives. What a therapist can do is help, for example, a person make better judgements about relationships.

Artisticsolution, I think you are well versed in the use of psychology, so I wonder why you ask the question.
artisticsolution
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Re: another psychiatric diagnosis under my belt

Post by artisticsolution »

reasonvemotion wrote:

Artisticsolution, I think you are well versed in the use of psychology, so I wonder you ask the question.
No, I have never studied psychology...I just had a mom who had a history of mental illness. She swore that her shrink made her well. I grew up with all the stories of her therapy and psychoanalysis and when I got older I was so used to hearing about it , I just started asking different 'what if' type questions. Questions like the ones I presented before. And when I stripped away the bias...and just looked at the questions from a neutral position, I realized that there was no real way to be able to predict an outcome based on an action taken as we could all be mistaken.

Not to mention taking a look around the world and that it appears that 'abnormal' behavior is quite "normal". Hell, one can even take a look around this forum to be able to tell that...and I don't even think one needs to be a therapist! :lol:
chaz wyman
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Re: another psychiatric diagnosis under my belt

Post by chaz wyman »

artisticsolution wrote:
artisticsolution wrote: All I am asking is how can we know that psychology works towards better mental health?
C:It does not pretend to. Psychology is about understanding mental processes.

AS: Chaz, you are correct, of course....but most people do not see it that way...they see psychology as some sort of cure for mental illness...at least in America. According to wikipedia psychology does try to promote better mental health and is a scientific method based of general principles:

"Psychology is the study of the mind, occurring partly via the study of behavior.[1][2] Grounded in scientific method,[1][2] psychology has the immediate goal of understanding individuals and groups by both establishing general principles and researching specific cases,[3][4] and for many it ultimately aims to benefit society.

I just question it's ability to do so by "scientific method" as each individual is different and what benefits one may not benefit the other AND what harms one may not harm the other. It just seems that is Kayla's case, there is no evidence that remaining close to her brother could harm her...even if it was harmful to others. In fact, it may be more harmful to remove their closeness before she is ready. Of course there is no way to know until we view the outcome by hindsight.

I agree to what you have to say about medication, as that is a method which can change a persons mental health and appears to be a more practical scientific method found through research. And although it may not be fool proof...they are less likely to be voo doo/witch doctor/ astrology type cures such as looking at ink blots and the like. Those type cures amount to brainwashing, and while effective to control the masses behavior, we have no real evidence that the masses aren't in worse mental health that if they had never been brainwashed to begin with.

Take religion as an example or mass brainwashing....there is no real evidence that the world would be more or less evil without God...as it seems there is alot of 'evil' that goes on in his name. We simply don't know what would happen if God was never introduced. Could be worse...could be better. Same with Psychology and behavioral suggestions...the cure could be worse than the "disease".
Aims to better mental health is not the same as for many it ultimately aims to benefit society.. Psychology is used to sell hamburgers and to design one-armed bandits; psychologists are used to most effectively tell lies in political campaigns. The word implies the study of (logos), whereas psychiatry implies a doctor (iatros).
It seems that some counselling services have adopted "psychologist" to avoid a pejorative "psychiatrist" because they want to pretend to their patients that they are not "ill".

I agree that it is unlike most science.
reasonvemotion
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Re: another psychiatric diagnosis under my belt

Post by reasonvemotion »

I would be more interested in the patient's answer as to their final opinion and outcome of their treatment. It seems meaningless to comment, without actual experience. Would it not be similar to ask what was it like to have a sex addiction, when looking for love went too far! I seriously doubt either of you have any idea what that would be like. Without the experience how could you answer whether or not, psychology could help or hinder.
chaz wyman
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Re: another psychiatric diagnosis under my belt

Post by chaz wyman »

reasonvemotion wrote:I would be more interested in the patient's answer as to their final opinion and outcome of their treatment. It seems meaningless to comment, without actual experience. Would it not be similar to ask what was it like to have a sex addiction, when looking for love went too far! I seriously doubt either of you have any idea what that would be like. Without the experience how could you answer whether or not, psychology could help or hinder.
Is this directed to me?

Unless you accept the difference between psychology and psychiatry then we are not talking about the same thing. A Biologist is not the same as a Doctor.
reasonvemotion
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Re: another psychiatric diagnosis under my belt

Post by reasonvemotion »

Are we on the same page


Psychologists
Psychologists study the physical, cognitive, emotional and social aspects of human behaviour.

They are trained in techniques to diagnose and treat a wide range of emotional, behavioural or cognitive problems.

To become a psychologist you must complete a minimum of 4 years university study in psychology and complete a minimum of 2 years supervised practice to become a registered psychologist in Australia.

Psychologists cannot prescribe medication.

Treatments focus on changing behaviour without medication. Techniques used are based on considerable scientific evidence.



Psychiatrists
Psychiatrists also have to go to university to study psychiatry. They have a medical degree, which involves 6 years of studying general medicine, followed by further study of the mind to specialise in psychiatry.

They specialise in the medical treatment of mental illness. Psychiatrists can prescribe medication.

Some psychiatrists combine medication with other forms of therapy.
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Kayla
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Re: another psychiatric diagnosis under my belt

Post by Kayla »

reasonvemotion wrote:I am not referring to the physical changes exclusively that take place during puberty. I dont recall ever referring to inappropriate sex concerning yourself and your brother. I was thinking more of the psychology of the changes experienced at puberty. For example, you may become moody, you dont want to talk to anyone, or that people at home or school are really annoying, or you might just want to hide away. Puberty and privacy......this is all part of growing up and I don't think twins are excluded from these changes.
in my own case my twin is the only person i never find annoying

but i know that experiences of twins are very different

there are twins who hate each other

there are twins who are inseparable

and often the twins are not on the same page in their relationship especially as puberty hits

i talked to one girl who was totally devastated at 13 when he twin sister did not want to hang out with her all the time and was really mad at her twin for abandoning her

and then at 14 she found her own circle of friends and things were fine she is close to her sister but they have different interests and different friends
reasonvemotion
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Re: another psychiatric diagnosis under my belt

Post by reasonvemotion »

When I was around 18 my best friends, were twin girls, Bennie and Bobbie We went everywhere together and I was always in the "middle" even when we all slept together. LOL. They slept together up until one marrried. One married and the other remained single. It seemed they were always waiting to be reunited with each again. It sort of didnt work for them, being separated. :(
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