In Times of Trouble - what do you do?

Can philosophers help resolve the real problems that people have in their lives?

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Tamsuan
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Re: In Times of Trouble - what do you do?

Post by Tamsuan » Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:14 am

Sorry Marjoram_Blues but when you said: " May and Trump holding hands.
It sickens me to my very core. " I had an immediate vision of Obama and Cameron holding hands being much more acceptable and I got a good chuckle from that.
BTW that's just goofy humor and not a political stand on my part.

For some odd reason, When I find myself in times of trouble Mother Mary doesn't come to me. Not yet anyway. I just do the best I can to remedy the situation, accept my limitations and concentrate on this: I can't perfectly control what happens in the world but I am in charge of my affective domain, i.e. how I feel about what happens. Beats depression any day.

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Greta
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Re: In Times of Trouble - what do you do?

Post by Greta » Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:34 am

marjoram_blues wrote:Thanks, Greta, enjoyed your post. Nothing quite like an honest and open exchange of ideas. Especially given the fast moving change in politics - and upheavals.

I'm particularly concerned re the UK move away from Europe towards a changed and unpredictable USA. Speaking generally - I fucking hate what is happening. May and Trump holding hands.
It sickens me to my very core.
I can't even begin to articulate...
thank goodness there are others out there who can do this so much better - and hopefully, make a stand against any regressive steps.

Bye for now.
I take it "bye for now" means you have decided on more uplifting activities for a while :)

I do think it's important to remain cheerful, even in the face of all this. We need to find, or create, niches of positivity. To be opportunistic rather than fatalist. We can't change the big picture but we can change our response to it. Throughout history, every now and then a shocking retrograde movement occurs. It looks like we have landed in one such cultural period, but it's nothing that billions of others have not endured - and come out the other side a little better than before.

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Re: In Times of Trouble - what do you do?

Post by marjoram_blues » Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:58 am

Greta wrote:
marjoram_blues wrote:Thanks, Greta, enjoyed your post. Nothing quite like an honest and open exchange of ideas. Especially given the fast moving change in politics - and upheavals.

I'm particularly concerned re the UK move away from Europe towards a changed and unpredictable USA. Speaking generally - I fucking hate what is happening. May and Trump holding hands.
It sickens me to my very core.
I can't even begin to articulate...
thank goodness there are others out there who can do this so much better - and hopefully, make a stand against any regressive steps.

Bye for now.
I take it "bye for now" means you have decided on more uplifting activities for a while :)

I do think it's important to remain cheerful, even in the face of all this. We need to find, or create, niches of positivity. To be opportunistic rather than fatalist. We can't change the big picture but we can change our response to it. Throughout history, every now and then a shocking retrograde movement occurs. It looks like we have landed in one such cultural period, but it's nothing that billions of others have not endured - and come out the other side a little better than before.
I'm still here. Trying to follow the wisdom contained in the Serenity Prayer, without the God aspect.
Trouble is...when mind won't do what you tell it to.
I agree that even apparent obstacles can be seen as opportunities. Also, it is clear that billions have (had) it a lot worse.
However, sometimes being 'cheerful' is not possible. Or appropriate. But I know what you mean.
Looking for the positives is what I intend to do. Which is why I drop in here, to listen to people like you. Articulate and intelligent. Thanks.

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Re: In Times of Trouble - what do you do?

Post by marjoram_blues » Thu Feb 02, 2017 8:11 am

Tamsuan wrote:Sorry Marjoram_Blues but when you said: " May and Trump holding hands.
It sickens me to my very core. " I had an immediate vision of Obama and Cameron holding hands being much more acceptable and I got a good chuckle from that.
BTW that's just goofy humor and not a political stand on my part.

For some odd reason, When I find myself in times of trouble Mother Mary doesn't come to me. Not yet anyway. I just do the best I can to remedy the situation, accept my limitations and concentrate on this: I can't perfectly control what happens in the world but I am in charge of my affective domain, i.e. how I feel about what happens. Beats depression any day.
Hello and welcome, Tamsuan - what an interesting name.
Love your goofy humour, could do with more of it. I seem to have misplaced mine.
I also appreciate your approach. As in 'change the attitude'.
However, I don't accept that we are in full charge of our affective domain. Unfortunately.
Depression is only one of many affective disorders which are not always easily controlled.
Whispered words of wisdom don't always wash.

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Greta
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Re: In Times of Trouble - what do you do?

Post by Greta » Thu Feb 02, 2017 8:42 am

marjoram_blues wrote:
Greta wrote:
marjoram_blues wrote:Thanks, Greta, enjoyed your post. Nothing quite like an honest and open exchange of ideas. Especially given the fast moving change in politics - and upheavals.

I'm particularly concerned re the UK move away from Europe towards a changed and unpredictable USA. Speaking generally - I fucking hate what is happening. May and Trump holding hands.
It sickens me to my very core.
I can't even begin to articulate...
thank goodness there are others out there who can do this so much better - and hopefully, make a stand against any regressive steps.

Bye for now.
I take it "bye for now" means you have decided on more uplifting activities for a while :)

I do think it's important to remain cheerful, even in the face of all this. We need to find, or create, niches of positivity. To be opportunistic rather than fatalist. We can't change the big picture but we can change our response to it. Throughout history, every now and then a shocking retrograde movement occurs. It looks like we have landed in one such cultural period, but it's nothing that billions of others have not endured - and come out the other side a little better than before.
I'm still here. Trying to follow the wisdom contained in the Serenity Prayer, without the God aspect.
Trouble is...when mind won't do what you tell it to.
I agree that even apparent obstacles can be seen as opportunities. Also, it is clear that billions have (had) it a lot worse.
However, sometimes being 'cheerful' is not possible. Or appropriate. But I know what you mean.
Looking for the positives is what I intend to do. Which is why I drop in here, to listen to people like you. Articulate and intelligent. Thanks.
I suppose what you are doing is grieving. You had hopes and they have been dashed. I'm not sure I had too many hopes, personally - seven billion people wanting an ever greater slice of a limited and shrinking resource pie can only lead to one place, and it's only ever been a matter of when than if. I'm disappointed that's it's coming on so fast, but historical movements are like that - a long period of building pressure followed by a blow up.

In the face of natural pressures that are larger than humanity we little critters can only make hay while the sun shines.

You are a most kind person. Thanks, as I'm a tad insecure about my place on these forums as an unlettered swine with only a management qualification that may as well have come from a packet of Cornflakes :)

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TSBU
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Post by TSBU » Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:20 am

Greta wrote:The contempt given to those those expressing sensitivity or compassion for the weak has been shocking to me. I see it as a remasculinisation of society, presumably in preparation for war. There is increasingly withering contempt for anything deemed even vaguely feminine - women, gays, compassion, peace, gentleness, kindness, forgiveness, beauty, refinement - and even intelligence.
Because men are not gay, not compassionate, not peaceful, not kind, never forgive, they are ugly, not refined, and stupid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86dlgoeyYTI

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Greta
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Re:

Post by Greta » Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:40 am

TSBU wrote:
Greta wrote:The contempt given to those those expressing sensitivity or compassion for the weak has been shocking to me. I see it as a remasculinisation of society, presumably in preparation for war. There is increasingly withering contempt for anything deemed even vaguely feminine - women, gays, compassion, peace, gentleness, kindness, forgiveness, beauty, refinement - and even intelligence.
Because men are not gay, not compassionate, not peaceful, not kind, never forgive, they are ugly, not refined, and stupid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86dlgoeyYTI
A rather broad brush you're painting with there, TSBU!

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Re: Re:

Post by TSBU » Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:06 am

Greta wrote:
TSBU wrote:
Greta wrote:The contempt given to those those expressing sensitivity or compassion for the weak has been shocking to me. I see it as a remasculinisation of society, presumably in preparation for war. There is increasingly withering contempt for anything deemed even vaguely feminine - women, gays, compassion, peace, gentleness, kindness, forgiveness, beauty, refinement - and even intelligence.
Because men are not gay, not compassionate, not peaceful, not kind, never forgive, they are ugly, not refined, and stupid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86dlgoeyYTI
A rather broad brush you're painting with there, TSBU!
It's what is done with sarcasm.

See who talks. You are basically saying that good things are femenine things, and then you say that you don't want people to see differences between genders (out of the evident differences, like... having a dick), to the point where you say "straw person" instead of "strawman" because "strawman" probably sounds "opresive" to you.

I laugh at the "remasculinization" term XD. Where exactly is society remasculinizating? Private citizens are what they are and you'll find everything (wich means that there are people who treat better one gender than the other, both things, and it depends on the situation), and there are places in the world where women have no rights, agree. But it's not like that at all in USA or... most of "western" world, in law terms, wich are more measurable, and in theory, are equal for everybody.

In fact, in laws, women have in many cases more rights than men. Say one law that is in favour of man, we can turn this into a competition, I can say a lot of laws in favour of women.

Women have more rights when they reproduce (they can stay at home more time)
Women have less prison punishment when they hit or kill a male than the oposite (specially in my country).
A policewoman (or other jobs) doesn't need to be as strong or fast as a policeman (wich is completely absurd, since the thief is going to be equally fast).
Women can keep the children more easily if they divorce, just by being women, and they can more easily have the money and things earned by the man.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNErQFmOwq0

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Re: Re:

Post by Greta » Thu Feb 02, 2017 8:50 pm

TSBU wrote:
Greta wrote:
TSBU wrote:
Because men are not gay, not compassionate, not peaceful, not kind, never forgive, they are ugly, not refined, and stupid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86dlgoeyYTI
A rather broad brush you're painting with there, TSBU!
It's what is done with sarcasm.

See who talks. You are basically saying that good things are femenine things, and then you say that you don't want people to see differences between genders (out of the evident differences, like... having a dick), to the point where you say "straw person" instead of "strawman" because "strawman" probably sounds "opresive" to you.
Does it occur to you that I use non gendered language because I like logic and it simply makes more sense to me? It's hard to imagine you thinking anything but the worst about others.

For the record, I never cared about the terms "straw person"/"straw man" until now. I just write that reflexively because that's how I think. As a high-functioning autistic person (note that I did not way "woman" - again, I like neutrality) I have always clung to logic as a protection against others' lies, manipulations and jaundice, which confused and disturbed me as a child (gender neutral). Hence my love for nature and science. Also math and the more scientific elements of philosophy.

So I have always used the term "straw person" without the slightest attitude, hostility or prejudice. Like my mother (actually both my parents), I have always spent more time with men than women so I'm hardly anti-male. My last band was all male apart from me and I had great relationships with them - all of them being decent, reliable, intelligent, talented and humorous people (gender neutral).

I am simply wedded to logic, calmness, neutrality, decency and reject the opposite - prejudice, aggression, partisanship and manipulativeness. I say this in the hope that you will understand me a little better and not make such factually incorrect and pointlessly hurtful attacks.

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Re: Re:

Post by TSBU » Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:52 pm

Greta wrote: Does it occur to you that I use non gendered language because I like logic and it simply makes more sense to me?
Of course it makes sense to you. Everything what people do make sense for them.
I don't pretend to give you an English lesson, but... do you know the origin of the word "straw man"? well, we know what it means, it means "a false oponent", maybe it begun with toys made of straw, or with scarecrows, or maybe it begin with dummies, since it is a false oponent, and they were false men, evidently. The first records are (for what I've seen) around 1500.

That are 500 years of "straw man", now you and a few people say "straw person", because it makes sense to you, and it's fine for me, as long as I can understand you, and the rules say it's ok, well, ok. But do you know why "hello" means "hello"? If I list you all the things that doesn't make sense to a Spanish person learning English this will take a long while, and it's raining cats and dogs. Now that you say that I always think bad of other people, are you trying to make learning English more difficult or something? Remember that I'm learning.
It's hard to imagine you thinking anything but the worst about others.

It's hard for you. Ok. And yes, I always think at the begining (And this morning I was thinking to myself that I should think it even more but I can't) that people are not very good unless they show otherwise. That's what my life has taught me, I may be "bitter" to many strangers, but that doesn't make me a bad person.
For the record, I never cared about the terms "straw person"/"straw man" until now. I just write that reflexively because that's how I think. As a high-functioning autistic person (note that I did not way "woman" - again, I like neutrality) I have always clung to logic as a protection against others' lies, manipulations and jaundice, which confused and disturbed me as a child (gender neutral). Hence my love for nature and science. Also math and the more scientific elements of philosophy.
If you want this... since you talk in English, this won't make sense for you, you have many words with no gender, in my language, there are genders for everhting, for example, the rain is femenine, the dog is masculine, and there are a few words without gender (Or I think they don't have gender, because I don't use articles on them), for example, January, (enero). And there are some rules, just for language, for example, when we talk about a bunch of people, unless they are all women, we say the masculine form of "we" (nosotros en lugar de nosotras). Well, in my country it is becoming very common to hear "feminist girls" talking about things changing the gender with a ridiculous political meaning, for example, in a group of only men, they have started to say "nosotras", and they put gender to the fucking months... I know it's difficult to understand but... how would you feel if someone start saying "Januarya" Februarya" etc? pretening that call it in the other way is "sexism", it sounds ridiculous doesn't it? Yep, Trump is ridiculous, but never underestimate places where they talk Spanish, he is not saying that chicken turn people gay yet XD.
So I have always used the term "straw person" without the slightest attitude, hostility or prejudice. Like my mother (actually both my parents), I have always spent more time with men than women so I'm hardly anti-male. My last band was all male apart from me and I had great relationships with them - all of them being decent, reliable, intelligent, talented and humorous people (gender neutral).
Then why do you talk about "remasculiniation" impliying that it means geting away from intelligence, compassion, etc? Because, talking about straws-whatevers, that was my main motive to write. Maybe you should change that words to make them have sense too. I'm just doing the same you say you did (but without the concrete exact meaning that straw man has, and "masculine" doesn't have), I'm just saying that being a man doesn't mean to be a monkey.
I am simply wedded to logic, calmness, neutrality, decency and reject the opposite - prejudice, aggression, partisanship and manipulativeness. I say this in the hope that you will understand me a little better and not make such factually incorrect and pointlessly hurtful attacks.
Hurtful? How? It doesn't matter, it's ok for me if it's true. But, if you want a list of things, now that we are being honest, and I can make a list for each person because nobody is perfect: You talk too much about "society" specially puting biology where it doesn't belongs, and you don't want to divide in evil and not evil people or things like that, that's basically what I don't like in you, there are no hiden thoughts or anything out of that, so I don't know how can what I say hurt you, really, I don't want you to die or something lke that :/

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Tamsuan
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Re: In Times of Trouble - what do you do?

Post by Tamsuan » Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:45 pm

I'm all for PC speech, for example; a police person-hunt for gun-person and his hench-person. Makes sense doesn't it?
Con-person, bag-person, garbage-person, Yeo-person of the guard. Good stuff!
Frosty the snow-person.... hoochy-coochy-person..... I could go on but I better not.

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Greta
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Re: In Times of Trouble - what do you do?

Post by Greta » Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:15 am

Tamsuan, thank you for your contribution. You may now return to your Dr Seuss book. Hopefully it will improve your vocabulary.

TSBU, if you were any more anal you'd be wearing chaps.

I like "straw person". It feels right. How would you like it if a bunch of women came on here hassling you about using "straw man"?

So back off.

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Tamsuan
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Re: In Times of Trouble - what do you do?

Post by Tamsuan » Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:09 am

Greta you have to understand that old codgers like myself haven't yet got the hang of PC talk. It's pretty baffling at times. It seems you guys are miffed if we do and miffed if we don't. So straw person is good? Okay, how about chairperson of the board; good? But definitely not hootchy cootchy person, I take it. I'll make note of this.
Actually, since the topic here is "In Times of Trouble - what do you do?" I was posting light-heartedly to hint at something I don't recommend doing in response to adversity.

It's a rough world, I find. People don't always treat me the way I would like to be treated or speak with the words I would prefer to hear. People don't always vote in the way I would like either. If, when this sort of thing happens, I take myself too seriously, become offended or mortified, dive headfirst into anguish and despondency, how does that help? It just drains my energy and makes me not only unhappy but ineffective as well. That's what I don't recommend. On the other hand:

Laughter releases endorphins into the bloodstream which contribute to health and support coping abilities. It really works.

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Greta
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Re: In Times of Trouble - what do you do?

Post by Greta » Fri Feb 03, 2017 6:33 am

police person --> police officer, policeman or policewoman, cop, copper, etc

gun person --> shooter, killer, hit man, assassin

hench-person --> crony, partner in crime, accomplice, flunky, sidekick

Con-person --> scammer, scam artist, swindler, crook

bag-person -->

garbage-person --> garbage collector, garbo (in Aust), trash collector

ombudsman --> ombudsman, because it's a Scandinavian word

If someone uses the traditional gendered terms, you will never read a complaint from me. I accept that and just write my own way.

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TSBU
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Post by TSBU » Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:36 am

Greta wrote:
TSBU, if you were any more anal you'd be wearing chaps.

I like "straw person". It feels right. How would you like it if a bunch of women came on here hassling you about using "straw man"?
Oh, I cant hurt, but you can try. Fine, very common, an authistic person saying that.... is quite ridiculous, sice you will never grow your habilities to the level of a common person in some fields.

As I said, you are against 500 years, and, as I said, don't fight a strawman, just dont call men monkeys, thats the important part. Maybe your defective brain is what cause your problems to relate with others and understand what they say, but I wont treat you better just because of your mental problems if you cant even read other people posts before posting bullshit.

Maybe I should say that the "refemeninization" of society means that people are becoming more stupid, weaker, smaller, unable to controll their behaviour, liers, etc... sounds good to you? It's as ridiculous as the other.

Keep seing people as a whole and talking about society, after all, you'll never understand some of people thoughts and feelings.

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