My Perceptions

Can philosophers help resolve the real problems that people have in their lives?

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Greta
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Re: My Perceptions

Post by Greta » Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:15 pm

Dalek Prime wrote:
Greta wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote: I think Osric is right on that. Just because something is the way it is, doesn't mean that it's good. It just means the life system is skewed to what we happen to term evil, and we ignore or accept that evil system as a 'good' thing, because there is no alternative to it. It's only when it happens to something or someone we care for, is the illusion we've cultivated as 'good', shattered, becoming something evil or horrific. Eg. The neighbours dog killed and ate your sweet pooch, or a lion ate your baby, or a man ate another man. Then suddenly, the system sucks, and we mentally revolt.
I've never been a fan of the brutality of nature*. We do tend to accept "evil", ie. entropy because there's no choice, not if we hope to enjoy life. George Carlin's "I just watch the show" approach was an inspiration for me.

Everything in nature must be destroyed to make way for the next things, which in turn will be destroyed, re-used and replaced. I think The System sucks too but my emotional response doesn't matter. It's fascinating in a David Attenborough-ish way to see how nature is restructuring itself, suggesting how humans will essentially supersede themselves via institutional aggregations.


* when I say "nature" on the forum, assume that it includes both the cosmos and humans.
Very valid observation. Funny how I never say killings do eating as entropy before, though it clearly is. Ta Greta (and thanks for some earlier posts... you know...)
Cheers D. Yes, it's entropy. The universe wants to pull each part of itself to bits (which apparently prevents those parts from collapsing in on themselves) but the individual parts of the universe keep finding ever more involved ways of keeping themselves in one piece.

TSBU, I'm glad to have made you laugh, always glad to bring a little more joy into the world!

Entropy v growth. Chaos v order.

Entropy would seem more aligned with the idea of "evil" than is chaos - driving entities into disorder, as opposed to being disorder. An anthropomorphic example might help clarify: a person who inflicts entropy on others in a focused way would seem more "evil" than one who is simply chaotic, inflicting clumsy, accidental damage.

Bottom line: one way or another, the universe is out to get us :)

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TSBU
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Re: My Perceptions

Post by TSBU » Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:05 am

What a messssss.
Greta wrote: Cheers D. Yes, it's entropy. The universe wants to pull each part of itself to bits
The Universe wants nothing. Bits are information, and the universe is not information, it is reality, ifnormation is only in our heads.
but the individual parts of the universe keep finding ever more involved ways of keeping themselves in one piece.
The individual parts of the Universe are the concepts in your mind. Only thinking things "try" you've gone our of biology and now you are puting consciusness in sand, literally, but, well, even if you use a difusse meaning because of causality, evidently, not all "individual parts" want to "keep themselve in one piece", cause they, in every context, are destroying themselves. Like radiactive elements for example.
TSBU, I'm glad to have made you laugh, always glad to bring a little more joy into the world!
-.-

Chaos is something with entropy, a system with lot of entropy is a chaotic system.
Entropy would seem more aligned with the idea of "evil" than is chaos - driving entities into disorder, as opposed to being disorder. An anthropomorphic example might help clarify: a person who inflicts entropy on others in a focused way would seem more "evil" than one who is simply chaotic, inflicting clumsy, accidental damage.
This is a mess. Giving more temperature implies growing the entropy of a system, a living body is more chaotic than a death body. If I give warm to a cold person, I'm not being evil, if I don't kill him, either. Entropy is a phisics measuring, it simply has no sense to call it evil.

Bottom line: one way or another, the universe is out to get us :)
The Universe put you here, and it is responsible of, well, everything, since it is everything including you. All the love, all the food, all the music, everything is here. And all the death, all the chaotic posters in philosophy forums, all the pain, is here too. Universe is not here for you, it doesn't want to get you or to make you happy. You simply are, and that's fine. But you want to fight, you want things, you always want things, thats how we are, and, evidently, you want things that you don't have, like eternal life (stop ageing is not so difficult for science), but being like the original poster of this thread just makesme want to use lot of violence. Just enjoy your fucking life, or not, but stop complaining about phisics laws, that's anoying.
"Oh, how could we be born in a Universe where the second thermodinamic principle is true and 2+2 is 4 and I have to eat and people don't authomatcially loves me? it's so cruel".


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Osric
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Re: My Perceptions

Post by Osric » Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:44 am

Well, we could sit back and accept things as they are, or we could try to make efforts to improve life for everyone. Selfish people will do what they do best, better their lives at the expense of others. Just because something is decreed a scientific law doesn't mean efforts can't be made to better people's lives. We develop technology constantly to work with scientific laws. The first step is addressing the issue, then steps to lessen the suffering caused by those scientific laws can be pursued. Wow, it is really cold out, I wish there was some way to warm it up so I don't freeze to death. So we find ways to warm up. Some issues are more complex than others, but that doesn't mean they should be ignored.

I'm also deeply disturbed that you would want me rendered hopeless. You also wish violent acts upon me apparently. Such hostility for simply pointing out what bothers me. It seems to me, as you basically said, that you want me broken to serve you. When the society around you starts to degrade for you, or maybe even your future generations, then maybe you will understand. Just because you are enjoying yourself in this life doesn't mean everyone else is. Just because they are not happy or enjoying themselves doesn't make them lazy, inferior, or anything else you perceive as negative. Those of us with empathy actually do care about the well being of others. Maybe it is you, who have been rendered hopeless and broken?

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TSBU
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Re: My Perceptions

Post by TSBU » Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:43 am

Osric wrote:Well, we could sit back and accept things as they are, or we could try to make efforts to improve life for everyone. Selfish people will do what they do best, better their lives at the expense of others. Just because something is decreed a scientific law doesn't mean efforts can't be made to better people's lives. We develop technology constantly to work with scientific laws. The first step is addressing the issue, then steps to lessen the suffering caused by those scientific laws can be pursued. Wow, it is really cold out, I wish there was some way to warm it up so I don't freeze to death. So we find ways to warm up. Some issues are more complex than others, but that doesn't mean they should be ignored.

I'm also deeply disturbed that you would want me rendered hopeless. You also wish violent acts upon me apparently. Such hostility for simply pointing out what bothers me. It seems to me, as you basically said, that you want me broken to serve you. When the society around you starts to degrade for you, or maybe even your future generations, then maybe you will understand. Just because you are enjoying yourself in this life doesn't mean everyone else is. Just because they are not happy or enjoying themselves doesn't make them lazy, inferior, or anything else you perceive as negative. Those of us with empathy actually do care about the well being of others. Maybe it is you, who have been rendered hopeless and broken?
You can build a plane if you fight and think, but you won't destroy gravity screaming in a forum.

You can keep calling "selfish" to other people (because they don't love you, because they aren't how you want them to be, fucking anoying, pure irony), or you can shut the fuck up and pay instead of expecting free things, like everybody does.

You define selfish people and then you say that they are selfiish, that's redundant. Who the hell want to keep as a good tool a useless selfish man like you, who can only talk about how selfish are those who don't serve others? Just take what others gave to him, use it in useful people who are helping others...

I don't want you hopeless... well, I do want you to stop hoping lolipopland. As long as you keep being what for what I know won't change, I just want you far from me. Serving me? Ha, if I use violence it would be in order to delete you.

You don't know more than what I show here, you can't know how life has treaten me, and I can't know that about you.

Who the hell said that everybody is happy? since the first post I said "think in what is your real problem, in what do you really want, that's my advice", what you say is what makes you... not lazy, not "inferior" (I don't think in such terms) it makes you "stupid" in my eyes, that means that no matter what, in any situation, you are going to give a wrong solution., That causes harm. That's why I want you to change or be far from me.

And I don't want to keep talking here, chao chao.

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TSBU
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Re: My Perceptions

Post by TSBU » Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:57 am

Only one more thing. I'm asuming that i talk with an adult, how old are you?

ken
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Re: My Perceptions

Post by ken » Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:13 am

Osric wrote:The purpose of these opinions is an attempt to inspire change in people and the world around me.
You do not have to "attempt" to "inspire" change because, as is obvious by the responses already, you have already made change. Although the exact same type of change, which you desired, may not be the result that is actuated. But be rest assured change has taken place and continues to occur.

In fact absolutely every thing you do causes and creates change. Also, inspired change happens to ALL human beings anyways.
Osric wrote: I see so many apathetic people, and sheep people that is drives me insane.
Unless you are perfect I am pretty sure you, yourself, have done some apathetic things also, so do not let others drive you insane. Just change what you can, for the better, and let the other (sheep) follow you. The first and only things you need to change is the thoughts and feelings within. Everything else just changes and follows naturally.
Osric wrote: Someone once told me that in order to change the world around you, be that change and try to influence as many people as possible.
You do not have to "try to" influence any person because absolutely every thing you think and feel influences how you behave, or misbehave, and how you mis/behave influences people anyway. The truth is you can not NOT influence people. So, by very natural selection, YOU are influencing as many people as possible, naturally. There is nothing else you could do, nor "have to" do, in this regard.

How you influence others, however, and what you are influencing them to think, feel, and do, YOU can have full control over. But, what another adult thinks, feels, and does is not your responsibility. You can lead a human being anywhere, but you can not make them think, nor feel, nor behave in any certain way. What any human being wants to think, feel, learn, and discover is solely up to them, and the choices they make.
Osric wrote: I was simply trying to address what I perceived to be some core problems with our existence.
This is totally fair enough. The sad thing, though, is some/most human beings do not like to look at this because it is to much of a reflection of themselves. These people prefer to look away and pretend that they, themselves, do not do those things.
Osric wrote:If nothing is ever said, then how would people know how I feel and think?
Only by guessing. The best and only true way to let other people know exactly the thoughts and feelings within that body is to be truly open and honest always.
Osric wrote:Conflict is good, to me conflict will either lead to regression or progression. So bombard me with opinions and perceptions. I seek growth on a personal level as well.
I have provided a very tiny snippet of my perceptions, but something to think about anyway.

If you are truly serious about growth on a personal level I am more than very interested to converse with you. I am wondering how regression lead by conflict is good to you? I am not suggesting it is not good nor am I suggesting it is good. I am just asking a totally open-ended question for clarity.

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Greta
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Re: My Perceptions

Post by Greta » Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:01 am

TSBU wrote:
Greta wrote: Cheers D. Yes, it's entropy. The universe wants to pull each part of itself to bits
The Universe wants nothing. Bits are information, and the universe is not information, it is reality, ifnormation is only in our heads.
I think it's time to address an issue which is annoying. You do not understand English well and as a result you completely miss the nuances - especially colloquialisms, regional terminology, light-hearted phrases, metaphors and synedoches. Your interpretations are so literal, it's like trying to speak with artificial intelligence.

Worse, you angrily and contemptuously rebut posts that you don't understand. Perhaps you could show humility until you actually understand English properly? It's not worth my time untangling your misunderstandings and pointless rebuttal of points that were never made.

Credit to you for your bilingual skills, but it would help if you dropped the attitude.

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Re: My Perceptions

Post by TSBU » Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:54 pm

I think it's time to address an issue which is annoying. You do not understand English well and as a result you completely miss the nuances - especially colloquialisms, regional terminology, light-hearted phrases, metaphors and synedoches. Your interpretations are so literal, it's like trying to speak with artificial intelligence.
Image

I know that my English is a piece of shit, but I know that it's enough to some things, in my own language, I do the same when I argue... many times, people say things in a metaphor mode, or a literall mode, but they don't see or don't want to see what that things imply, I just continue their stances (that's what I'm doing with the selfish argument, ancient one).
Worse, you angrily and contemptuously rebut posts that you don't understand.
Can a mistake be understood? I like my posts though. And I'm not "angry"... talking about feelings is complcate, cause we don't feel the same way. My posts may sound angry if they talk about violence, but I'm relaxed and sometimes smilying when I write.
Perhaps you could show humility until you actually understand English properly?
Nah, people say the same in my own language too. I mean, if they don't understand a shit of what I say, they just say that what I say has no coherence. And that's ok, at least it's honest, I'm just doing the same :D. If nobody can see any truth in what I say, and I'm just a crazy man saying nosense, answering to things that aren't there... it's just more noise. If they can...
It's not worth my time untangling your misunderstandings and pointless rebuttal of points that were never made.
Yeah, whatever. Keep saying that "evil" is "entropy", and then say that I'm the one that don't understand.
Credit to you for your bilingual skills, but it would help if you dropped the attitude.
My language skills are garbage. Specially when I talk, cause all I do is writing and listening. English is the international language, everybody knows that, and it's an easy language, very easy, but I don't pay attention to learn or talk properly, I make mistakes all the time. Most of people with my studies can talk better than me.
But it's enough for now, and I guess something will get there if I keep practicing, sorry about my mistakes, but I can't change my "attitude", it's in my core after a long time dealing talking. Just ignore me if you can't stand me.

ken
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Re: My Perceptions

Post by ken » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:09 pm

Osric wrote:I have a great deal of empathy for those that suffer.
ALL people have empathy for those that 'suffer'.

If a person did not notice another 'suffer', then they would not have empathy. If, however, a person notices those that 'suffer', then, by definition, that person has 'empathy'. That is the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.
Osric wrote: I can't comprehend how people can just sit by and do nothing or pass the responsibility on to someone else.
If you really want to comprehend by understanding how people do this, then the best way to come to that comprehension and understanding is to answer openly and honestly WHY you yourself do the exact same things. So, WHY do you sit by and do nothing AND pass the responsibility on to someone else? If you take notice even in your very next sentence you pass the responsibility on to someone else.
Osric wrote: Obviously the people in charge of things are not doing their role or can't keep up with all the suffering in the world.
Osric wrote: In order to make things better for EVERYONE, not just a few people, there needs to be dramatic change.
What do you propose IS that "dramatic" change?

I KNOW what change is needed, do you? That change by the way is very far from dramatic. The opposite may be more the truth.
Osric wrote:Such change needs to take place in various governments around the world.
The change that is needed begins way, way before it reaches government level.
Osric wrote: Some beneficial changes or improvements could be in infrastructure, education, and economic systems.
Changes or improvements in those things certainly is of no benefit to make the world better for everyone before the right change takes place first. In fact the continual perceived "beneficial" changes to those things, before the true and right change take place, could be proven they are more disadvantages and the continual detriment to making a better world. The seemingly "beneficial" changes to those things that only benefit some and not ALL causes more problems, which only creates a worse world, for everyone.
Osric wrote: You fix the problems and the symptoms should go away. It appears to me people only treat the symptoms in their attempts to fix things.
I say, if you prevent the cause, then you have no symptoms, no problems, and no ill world. Prevention is obviously better than the cure.
Osric wrote:Change should involve anyone and everyone in my opinion, mainly because we are all sharing this universe together. Representation is okay, but we just need to make sure we are getting the right people to represent us.
I, for One, certainly do NOT need any one representing Me.
Osric wrote: Most of the people in politics are not out to make changes, but in fact make money or ensure some of their own agendas.
I am pretty sure you will find some people in politics are actually out to make changes, but that is only to achieve exactly what you wrote in the second part of your sentence.
Osric wrote:With my earlier post I was in a very negative state of mind I will admit, but that is was only because I felt hopeless and broken. I still feel that way, but I fight on, and some days are better than others. I know all to well that people are a limited amount of energy and time they are willing to devout to changing the world around them.
But people can not change the "world" around them how they, themselves, want "it" to be. Human beings can only change themselves, and from that things naturally change also. If human beings are going to continue on the path they are on now, that is only caring for themselves, individually, and a select few others, then the world that they are creating now will continue till there demise. Surely it is frigging obvious by NOW that if each individual human being is NOT doing in the interest of the whole, then the whole will collapse. The more that are not working for the whole then the quicker the whole is finished or dies out.
Osric wrote: All I'm asking is take a little more effort to make the world a better place for everyone.
But HOW? Effort in what exactly is actually needed?

I know-HOW. And, I KNOW exactly what effort is needed to make the world a far better place for Every One. That is if any one is really interested to learn HOW also.
Osric wrote:Don't let evil people represent you in politics, after all, all they have in mind is themselves.
There is NO such thing as evil and non-evil people. ALL adult human beings do bad or evil [wrong] as well as do good and what is right.

By the way human beings have to get this concept that governments and politics is the answer to all their problems. Governments, politics, religions, rulers (or royals), and their followers cause far more destruction, misery, and mayhem on earth, then any other thing.
Osric wrote:Just because something could be worse, does not make it acceptable.
A very simple, easy, and quick statement but also are far more importantly a very true statement.
Osric wrote: I also think that most of our current lives are predatory, in that we must in some ways prey off each other in order to thrive. Such is the way of most of the current economic systems we have in place. The very phrase, "to capitalize", means to prosper off of someone else. Capitalism is basically a predatory system in which one person or a group of people benefit from the unfortunate situations of other people or groups. Many nations take advantage and often orchestrate the unfortunate events that take place so that they may benefit from it.
[/quote]

The very first mistake here I found is believing we, human beings, need money to live.

By just the simple change that takes place by understanding this most simplest of true statements and changing the thinking, then the predatory system of capitalism can finally begin to be slowly but surely put to where it belongs, that is to death.

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Greta
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Re: My Perceptions

Post by Greta » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:02 pm

TSBU wrote:Yeah, whatever. Keep saying that "evil" is "entropy", and then say that I'm the one that don't understand.
"Evil" is the name we give for significant amounts of entropy being inflicted on a valued entity. Small amounts of entropy don't count - it's damaging concentrations of entropy.

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TSBU
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Re: My Perceptions

Post by TSBU » Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:28 pm

Greta wrote:
TSBU wrote:Yeah, whatever. Keep saying that "evil" is "entropy", and then say that I'm the one that don't understand.
"Evil" is the name we give for significant amounts of entropy being inflicted on a valued entity. Small amounts of entropy don't count - it's damaging concentrations of entropy.
Growing temperature, as I said, means growing enthropy. A living animal, is a system with more enthropy than a dead animal. If you don't agree with this, then enthropy or "order" is just what you want them to be when you want them to be that way. As it is "value entity". Just say "harm", or "damage", starting a billar game is not "evil", but it certeanly increases enthropy in the... billar table?

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TSBU
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Re: My Perceptions

Post by TSBU » Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:09 am

TSBU wrote:
Greta wrote:
TSBU wrote:Yeah, whatever. Keep saying that "evil" is "entropy", and then say that I'm the one that don't understand.
"Evil" is the name we give for significant amounts of entropy being inflicted on a valued entity. Small amounts of entropy don't count - it's damaging concentrations of entropy.
Growing temperature, as I said, means growing enthropy. A living animal, is a system with more enthropy than a dead animal in an ice cube. If you don't agree with this, then enthropy or "order" is just what you want them to be when you want them to be that way. As it is "value entity". Just say "harm", or "damage", starting a billar game is not "evil", but it certeanly increases enthropy in the... billar table?

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Greta
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Re: My Perceptions

Post by Greta » Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:15 am

TSBU wrote:
Greta wrote:
TSBU wrote:Yeah, whatever. Keep saying that "evil" is "entropy", and then say that I'm the one that don't understand.
"Evil" is the name we give for significant amounts of entropy being inflicted on a valued entity. Small amounts of entropy don't count - it's damaging concentrations of entropy.
Growing temperature, as I said, means growing enthropy. A living animal, is a system with more enthropy than a dead animal. If you don't agree with this, then enthropy or "order" is just what you want them to be when you want them to be that way. As it is "value entity". Just say "harm", or "damage", starting a billar game is not "evil", but it certeanly increases enthropy in the... billar table?
Do you know what "significant" means?

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TSBU
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Re: My Perceptions

Post by TSBU » Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:18 am

hahahahahahahHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Osric
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Re: My Perceptions

Post by Osric » Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:56 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyVHiHxPdjU

Here are the lyrics to the song if you feel like reading instead.

Amon Amarth - Slaves of Fear

They speak of love and tolerance
They prey on people's ignorance
To make you all
Slaves of fear

They feed on your anxiety
To build their gent society
They kept you down for one thousand years

They nurture prejudice and hate
To them the wars that they create
In the name of one ample god

They gladly sacrifice your life
Increasing power is their price
Without regrets, they'll spill your blood

They're feeding you lies
With calculating smiles
With slaves made of the human mind
As long as you kneel to their authority
Religion, it's what makes you blind

They'll treat all you as mindless fools
They use you as obedient tools
It's time to set your spirit free
This world we cannot tolerate
It's time to seal all preachers fate
We looked ahead from Odin's grave

Your lives are a strain of egotistic chains
They've locked you up and thrown away the key
Your souls are for sale, and you're the ones who pay
But still, you'll never be set free

They're feeding you lies
With calculating smiles
With slaves made of the human mind
As long as you kneel to their authority
Religion, it's what makes you blind

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