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Can philosophers help resolve the real problems that people have in their lives?

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marjoram_blues
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states of being, creativity and poetry

Post by marjoram_blues » Thu May 05, 2016 9:56 am

hajrafradi wrote:
marjoram_blues wrote: Does your 'Pushthrough' poetry help in a 'counselling' kinda way?
Kierkegaard asks: ' What is a poet? An unhappy man who hides deep anguish in his heart, but whose lips are so formed that when the sigh and cry pass through them, it sounds like lovely music.' ( p43 Either/Or - a fragment of life )
A Hungarian novelist, Dezso Kosztolanyi, put it this way (roughly translated by me now, ad-hoc): "Poets make a garbage heap out of their lives only so that they will produce a colourful mushroom to grow on it." I can't remember if he used the word "mushroom" or "flower".

I think he got it wrong. Poets start with their life being a heap of garbage but they don't create it themselves, and don't even like it having their life that way arranged. Their inner sense and yearning for beauty then creates the colourful vegetation. I mean, poets are reactive, not pro-active. They deal with their lives like those who are given lemons. Do the best with what they are handed.

But to a non-poet, who looks at him or her from the outside, the process is indistinguishable from the way Kosztolanyi saw it. Because having your life resemble a garbage heap is also a self-generating process: you spiral downward, by force of your lifestyle you amplify your lifestyle. Onlookers may not notice that this is not necessarily your choice, they attribute the beginning as your own design, because they see you go from bad to worse, so they figure at one point you went ON YOUR OWN ACCORD from good to bad. But that first step is never the poet's wish or desire or even doing.

In other words, you have to be one to know how it exactly feels.

That's A. B. is that sometimes (an awful lot of times) the colourful vegetation seems only beautiful to the author of the poetry him- or herself. At that point, loneliness multiplies in intensity, but a sense of specialness and a sense of consolation has already been obtained. And those poets won't be damaged by the criticism of their poetry. Thank goodness.

Does poetry have any psychotherapeutic value for me? It feels good to push out a poem. A good poem. Like pushing out a good story. I feel relieved, and more at peace immediately after putting it out. Although it also galvanizes me a bit. Very comparable to inhaling the scent of the body of a woman (female pheromones) for a man (or the other way around for a woman, I guess): it both invigorates and calms the inhaling person. A little bit also like when you unburden yourself in the washroom. You feel lighter, more nimble, and energetic, while more relaxed and more at ease with yourself and with the world.

So the value of creating poetry, at least for me, may be more of a physiological relief, which brings about a gentle and mild sense of euphoria.

Wow wee. I did answer you, didn't I.
Most interesting perspective on being an author of poetry and some generalisations which can be disputed. Perhaps I should highlight them...
I don't agree with either Kierkegaard, Dezso Kosztolanyi, or yourself on the seeming need for any kind of garbage life, or deep angst, to produce wonderful poetry.

'You have to be one, to know exactly how it feels' - well, this seems obvious that an individual would need to be a poet/carpenter/pilot to know how it feels. But this can't be generalised into how others feel. Nor does it say anything about how any criticism might affect them. Exactly, or otherwise.

Thanks for explaining the therapeutic value of creating poetry - as it pertains to yourself, and probably some would say that it like 'giving birth'.
I am interested in what potential therapeutic value your 'Pushthrough' might have for readers. Do you have an example to offer ?

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hajrafradi
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Re: states of being, creativity and poetry

Post by hajrafradi » Fri May 06, 2016 9:54 am

marjoram_blues wrote: I am interested in what potential therapeutic value your 'Pushthrough' might have for readers. Do you have an example to offer ?
Thanks for your review, Marjoram.

What examples I can offer with regard to the potential therpeutic value of "Pushthrough"? Well, I can't think of any examples.

Unless you count that old man who burst out crying after reading my poem about the Buddha. And the other man, also European, whose eyes watered when he read "August Night".

But other than that, I can't show much therapeutic value in the book. Maybe that blind man, who, on the first reading of the book by his reader, gained back his eyesight immediately. And then there was the wake, of my best friends' father, and while the wife of the dearly depassed read the third chapter, the old man sat up in his casket (we had to open it after the "bonk") and said, "Someone, get me a beer, quick."

Other than that, no therapeutic value, whatsoever. Well, unless you count that burning bush in my backyard that talked to me and said it hadn't had such a soul-cleansing experience since it had breathed life into Adam.

------------

Actually, beyond the two grown men (neither of which is insane, I must add) who were made to cry by reading my poems, the rest of the above description was an attempt at humour via hyperbole.

------------

Seriously speaking: people are manifold. Much like two poets, as you pointed out, likely don't poe(*) the same way, and their own poetry touches them in individual ways, and they have distinct, individual motivating factors to poe, the readers are also widely varied. Very few poets achieve the same effect with everyone who read their poetry.

----

Poe, to poe: verb transitive and intransitive, to write poetry. Etymology: backformation from poem, poet, poetry.

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hajrafradi
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Re: This subject has no heading

Post by hajrafradi » Fri May 06, 2016 11:49 pm

Greta wrote:This kind of existential angst forgets about the relativities. No doubt many have been there. Me too.

So let's say that Gary is nowhere near as decent as he seems and is therefore worthy of "deletion" to save our scarce resources. That begs the question about all the thieves, bullies, sadists, idiots, wastrels, fundamentalists, etc who are most likely far less moral and made much less of a contribution. Then they deserve to go too.
(etc...etc...etc...)
So I'm in search for a compelling project. Gary, it appears that you are too.
You sure you did not misspell "two" as your last word of the above post?

Dubious
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Re: Re:

Post by Dubious » Sat May 07, 2016 3:39 am

The art of poetry, once so potent, is now the least valued and near to no consequence. It offers more confusion than insight to most people especially those living in the West. Poetry is mostly a matter of personal catharsis as a form of confession and for that purpose, doesn't have to be good which it seldom is.

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hajrafradi
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Re: Re:

Post by hajrafradi » Sat May 07, 2016 4:11 am

Hobbes' Choice wrote: Emphasyma is the body's way of telling you not to smoke.
Cancer is nature's way of telling you to look after your self.
Gall stones are nature's way of telling you to cut down on fat
Can you think of any more?
Death is nature's way of telling you to slow down.

Tapeworms are nature's way of telling you to wash your fruit.

Being arrested is nature's way of telling you to not sell drugs to kindergarten students. ESPECIALLY if you are a kindergarten teacher.

Your spouse of 50 years is nature's way of telling you that you made a mistake but it's too late to admit to it. Even to yourself.

Cell phones, Twitter and Snapchats are nature's way of telling you that you are getting left behind.

The proliferation of porn on the Internet is nature's way of telling you about basic human nature.

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hajrafradi
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Re: Re:

Post by hajrafradi » Sat May 07, 2016 4:26 am

Dubious wrote:The art of poetry, once so potent, is now the least valued and near to no consequence. It offers more confusion than insight to most people especially those living in the West. Poetry is mostly a matter of personal catharsis as a form of confession and for that purpose, doesn't have to be good which it seldom is.
Outside of fashionable trends, this is true for a lot of the movements and "in" things we used to enjoy and/or marvel at as kids.

Society is getting huge, it is getting to be a huge data itself, including the trends and fashions of the day. My, just look at music: all 12-22 year-olds listened to nothing but rock and the Beatles back 50 years ago, while now we have a musical trend for every facet of life's evolving complexity in terms of crowds. (This sentence did not turn out to be as grand and magnificent as it had promised to be in its formative beginnings.)

Math, esp. descriptive geometry, is also a lost art, not to mention differential equations. Slide rules have slid out of existence, as a rule. Fifty percent of persons could not identify a wind-up watch or know how to operate it, while they are perfectly capable to realistically launch a seven-astronaut moon-rocket from their cell phone game.

I wish, I wish I were a poet, and could write,

"I wish I was an ancient Chinese poet
so drunk even the moon seems sober.
I wish my mind was a flower.
Carry me oh carry me home."

From Exit Strategies by Dean Young.

Dubious
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Re: Re:

Post by Dubious » Sat May 07, 2016 5:43 am

hajrafradi wrote:
My, just look at music: all 12-22 year-olds listened to nothing but rock and the Beatles back 50 years ago, while now we have a musical trend for every facet of life's evolving complexity in terms of crowds.
Everything once had its Golden Age especially so in literature (poetry specifically) and certainly in music. Of the latter, its more than coincidental that the most magnificent periods in music were coincident with that of mathematics. As it happened and doomed to happen, the golden age of anything in a kind of reverse alchemy eventually corrodes into its so-called Silver, Bronze and Iron age counterparts and what was once immanent and understood to be magnificent becomes barely comprehensible. That's the state we're in now regarding both poetry and music. Poetry now amounts to nothing more than broken sentences of heightened prose and because there is such a dearth of verbal talent it must be "performed" to make an impression.

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Re: Re:

Post by hajrafradi » Sat May 07, 2016 6:08 am

Dubious wrote: Everything once had its Golden Age especially so in literature (poetry specifically) and certainly in music. Of the latter, its more than coincidental that the most magnificent periods in music were coincident with that of mathematics.
I won't doubt that. I just want to add that the golden age of post-war music and the golden age of impressionist art were both connected to 1. drugs 2. money. Esp. the latter.

It is unfortunate for me, a non-druggie droogie, that musicians en mass and as a rule no longer drop acid but use other drugs, esp. the crack cocaine. Individualism, creativity, soulful music with a backbeat went down the drain.

Oh, and money. If a guy or gal has good talent, AND they are good at computer graphics, they design games now. Whereas back then, they went for music. It was not impossible to sell a hundred thousand albums.

I am not sure if I could defend the money factor for impressionists. Sure they made out like a bandit, but they also paid their dues in poverty prior to that.

I wonder how much a Michelangelo or da Vinci was paid. On an hourly basis. Or a Boticelli, or a Rembrandt, or a marco di marconi dello sao paulo di compte de la vica verde. Munkacsi, the last non-impressionist realist, was paid through the nose, but he lost favour with the prince and princess of Monaco dilla Cappo Verdunate de Isole di Elbonia santo Dilla Mattia Maria du Dildo Lelcia Capistrana, and that's when the Impressonists swept up the stage with painters of all other movements.

Right now we are living in the Golden Age of Donald Trump.

Anywhoo, I'm free associating, because I am so bored as I haven't been before, save for me pre-nervous breakdown state back forty years ago or so.

Dubious
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Re: Re:

Post by Dubious » Sat May 07, 2016 8:07 am

hajrafradi wrote:I wonder how much a Michelangelo or da Vinci was paid.
No point asking what they made per hour. I don't think Leonardo was ever rich unlike mikey who along with Mr. Picasso were, from what I've read a long time ago, among the two richest artists who ever lived. Forget Rembrandt. The man was a pauper.
hajrafradi wrote:Right now we are living in the Golden Age of Donald Trump.
That doesn't sound right to me. It may be Trump's Golden Age which doesn't make it ours! However, it could make life interesting in a grotesque kind of way.
hajrafradi wrote:Anywhoo, I'm free associating, because I am so bored as I haven't been before, save for me pre-nervous breakdown state back forty years ago or so.
I noticed you were kind of free-lancing it as if you were wondering what's going to come next. BTW, that's not the same as improvising since there seem to be no real variations to the theme given. Before you get another breakdown, consider the indispensable merits of boredom as being incipient to perhaps another poem? Nietzsche was bored all the time which he considered the breeding ground for some of the greatest prose poems in the German language as well as in philosophy. Boredom is merely a dent in the spirit which invites an influx of ideas to straighten out.

marjoram_blues
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Re: states of being, creativity and poetry

Post by marjoram_blues » Sat May 07, 2016 11:45 am

hajrafradi wrote:
marjoram_blues wrote: I am interested in what potential therapeutic value your 'Pushthrough' might have for readers. Do you have an example to offer ?
Thanks for your review, Marjoram.

What examples I can offer with regard to the potential therpeutic value of "Pushthrough"? Well, I can't think of any examples.

Unless you count that old man who burst out crying after reading my poem about the Buddha. And the other man, also European, whose eyes watered when he read "August Night".

But other than that, I can't show much therapeutic value in the book. Maybe that blind man, who, on the first reading of the book by his reader, gained back his eyesight immediately. And then there was the wake, of my best friends' father, and while the wife of the dearly depassed read the third chapter, the old man sat up in his casket (we had to open it after the "bonk") and said, "Someone, get me a beer, quick."

Other than that, no therapeutic value, whatsoever. Well, unless you count that burning bush in my backyard that talked to me and said it hadn't had such a soul-cleansing experience since it had breathed life into Adam.

------------

Actually, beyond the two grown men (neither of which is insane, I must add) who were made to cry by reading my poems, the rest of the above description was an attempt at humour via hyperbole.

------------

Seriously speaking: people are manifold. Much like two poets, as you pointed out, likely don't poe(*) the same way, and their own poetry touches them in individual ways, and they have distinct, individual motivating factors to poe, the readers are also widely varied. Very few poets achieve the same effect with everyone who read their poetry.

----

Poe, to poe: verb transitive and intransitive, to write poetry. Etymology: backformation from poem, poet, poetry.
Hello again. Interesting talking to ya'. Not sure why my response was elevated to a 'review' but glad you showed appreciation. You made me smile with your examples.
I don't suppose many authors of poetry get to see or know about the emotional effect their words have on particular readers. Other than the likes of Amazon reviews...which seem either less, or too personal.

So, I was more looking for examples of your poetry which you might have written to help others know they are not alone in some, perhaps troublesome or upliffting, life experiences.

Would you care to read out 'August night' ?

Now, about ' to poe'. How do you pronounce that? I hear the sound of 'to go' and can't help but associate it with 'to poo'.
I spent a sleepless night considering other kinds of 'backformation' - new word for me.

I know it isn't similar but kept thinking of ' to counsel' as 'to cou'... :)

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hajrafradi
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Re: states of being, creativity and poetry

Post by hajrafradi » Sat May 07, 2016 8:26 pm

marjoram_blues wrote: Would you care to read out 'August Night' ?
You ask the most interesting, and to my ego, most complimentary questions, Marjoram.

How does record and play back sound work on this website? If I read it out loud now, under the current settings, I am afraid you are not going to hear a word of it.
marjoram_blues wrote:Now, about ' to poe'. How do you pronounce that? I hear the sound of 'to go' and can't help but associate it with 'to poo'.
Edgar Allan Poe. Same pron. Toe. Hoe. Joe. Roe. Foe.
marjoram_blues wrote:I spent a sleepless night considering other kinds of 'backformation' - new word for me.
I know it isn't similar but kept thinking of ' to counsel' as 'to cou'... :)
"Intuit", a verb, from noun "intuition" was the first one I heard. There are not too many. I forgot the second and third I heard. I probably use those quite often, except I forgot their origin.

Also, consider this (referring to your last sentence quoted): if Jewry is a bunch of Jews, then what's a country? (You need to pronounce this to have the desired effect.)

And while at the topic, to me a back-hoe, originally a construction equipment that excavates and moves dirt / earth, is a lady of the night who sells her favours to those coming up from the rear.

marjoram_blues
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Re: states of being, creativity and poetry

Post by marjoram_blues » Sat May 07, 2016 9:41 pm

hajrafradi wrote:
marjoram_blues wrote: Would you care to read out 'August Night' ?
You ask the most interesting, and to my ego, most complimentary questions, Marjoram.

How does record and play back sound work on this website? If I read it out loud now, under the current settings, I am afraid you are not going to hear a word of it.
marjoram_blues wrote:Now, about ' to poe'. How do you pronounce that? I hear the sound of 'to go' and can't help but associate it with 'to poo'.
Edgar Allan Poe. Same pron. Toe. Hoe. Joe. Roe. Foe.
marjoram_blues wrote:I spent a sleepless night considering other kinds of 'backformation' - new word for me.
I know it isn't similar but kept thinking of ' to counsel' as 'to cou'... :)
"Intuit", a verb, from noun "intuition" was the first one I heard. There are not too many. I forgot the second and third I heard. I probably use those quite often, except I forgot their origin.

Also, consider this (referring to your last sentence quoted): if Jewry is a bunch of Jews, then what's a country? (You need to pronounce this to have the desired effect.)

And while at the topic, to me a back-hoe, originally a construction equipment that excavates and moves dirt / earth, is a lady of the night who sells her favours to those coming up from the rear.
Coucou.
August night. Scrive fonetica.

duszek
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Re: Re:

Post by duszek » Wed May 11, 2016 1:00 pm

Thank you Marjoram for your kind reply.

It takes time to absorb a new and surprising idea. We need to accomodate the new idea into the network of ideas that we already harbour in our minds (can we use harbour in this sense ?).

Sometimes we need to make readjustments, we need to remove something and to replace it, or to see something from a new perspective.

It was only yesterday that I understood the prisoner´s dilemma from the game theory.
Some elements must have been missing before but yesterday I grasped all of it, during a lecture in maths.

Take care. :D

marjoram_blues
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Re: Re:

Post by marjoram_blues » Wed May 11, 2016 9:22 pm

duszek wrote:Thank you Marjoram for your kind reply.

It takes time to absorb a new and surprising idea. We need to accomodate the new idea into the network of ideas that we already harbour in our minds (can we use harbour in this sense ?).

Sometimes we need to make readjustments, we need to remove something and to replace it, or to see something from a new perspective.

It was only yesterday that I understood the prisoner´s dilemma from the game theory.
Some elements must have been missing before but yesterday I grasped all of it, during a lecture in maths.

Take care. :D
Thank duszek. Did you understand it better due to your slow reading method ? And I was waiting for you to give me an example of how you tackled de Anima using it.
If you are busy, then I understand.

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Re: Re:

Post by duszek » Mon May 16, 2016 4:06 pm

I open De Anima at random while lying on the mat on one side. I read a small passage, close my eyes and ruminate and sometimes discuss my impressions about it.

I have no record of these ruminations. Shall I keep some of them the next time and quote them ?

Sometimes I do the same with the "Foundations of Law". I read a case illustrating a legal point and then talk about it in my mind.

It can start with: Was haben die Typen gemacht ? Also wirklich, auf die Idee wäre ich nicht gekommen. So ein Unsinn ...

= what did the blokes do ? Really, what an idea, such a nonsense ...

The comments are full of emotional language, to put some colour into them.

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