Hope is...

Can philosophers help resolve the real problems that people have in their lives?

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marjoramblues
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Re: Hope is...

Post by marjoramblues » Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:56 pm

thedoc wrote:Hope without action is useless. With few exceptions.
Yes, I agree effort is required to achieve some hopes. Guess there are different kinds of hopes which can't be fulfilled due to obstacles. How many kinds - false, dashed,...

However, isn't 'hope' valuable in itself; as something to hold on to when all actions have failed to produce the required outcome. I think of the hopes of parents who have had children abducted.

Or even as a way of looking at the world - optimistic.

What are the 'few exceptions'?
What philosophical counselling would be useful for someone without hope?

marjoramblues
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Re: Hope is...

Post by marjoramblues » Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:02 pm

duszek wrote:... when I assume, for the time being, that I will be lucky in the future.
One can even have hopeful dreams.
If someone assumes that they will be lucky in the future, is that the same as having hope?
Isn't that more of a false optimism?

What philosophy do you draw on for this outlook?
Or for when bad luck happens...
Does 'bad luck' necessarily result in hopelessness?

marjoramblues
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Re: Hope is...

Post by marjoramblues » Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:06 pm

Kurt wrote:I "HOPE" that when it's all done and dusted in the end the one thing that still remains is love
'Love'...whatever that is :wink:

I hope that when 'it's all done and dusted in the end...' the one thing that still remains is...water.
Where 'it' means war, strife and God knows what else...

What did you mean by 'it' ?

marjoramblues
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Re: Hope is...

Post by marjoramblues » Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:08 pm

duszek wrote:... a reason for us to go on and on.

That is why we need to nurse it and keep it in good shape. Like a precious jewel.
Yes. Easy to do when feeling fine; the trick is in keeping it in hand when all seems hopeless...
How then...?

marjoramblues
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Re: Hope is...

Post by marjoramblues » Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:20 pm

artisticsolution wrote:...superstitious in nature, I think. Hoping for anything may get us out of bed, but there are no guarantees of anything.

M: not sure I see it as 'superstitious'...clearly, there are no guarantees of anything....hmmm... except bed sores if you lie in bed too long...

I have a friend who had cancer a while back, she is a very superstitious person....if she hopes to sell her house...she will bury statues in the front yard, when she got cancer she asked for prayers...
She seemed to be comforted when I mentioned that none of us can know for certain when we are going to die (she could get killed in a car accident on the way home for all she knows.)

M: Glad that your friend was comforted by your philosophy. Also, whatever it takes to get her through any despair, right? However, I guess she also took practical and effective action as well ?


So I wondered....does hope sometimes produce fear?

M: how would hope produce fear?

Hoping to live, when the fact is we all are going to die....

M: Hope of life - continue life with medical intervention and support from friends and family - is what keeps people going, even with certain knowledge of death.

Do people who hope have a greater fear of death I wonder?

M: Don't see the connection...

I am not a superstitious person any longer...maybe thanks to philosophy now....I don't fear death....I do fear life.

M: So, thanks to PN - you fear life. Really?


marjoramblues
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Re: Hope is...

Post by marjoramblues » Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:27 pm

AS, enjoyed your cartoon. Also your words re hopes of some women re having kids, etc.

It made me think of the word 'hope' as feminine, even though it clearly applies to men.
However, what man would want to be called 'Hope'; it sounds kinda weak and wimpish :wink:

marjoramblues
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Re: Hope is...

Post by marjoramblues » Fri Jan 10, 2014 4:10 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign ... rt-therapy

looking at A de B's list again and his links to art...

Don't really 'get' how Venetian glasses conjure up 'Care'.
Apparently, it is 'a moral tale of gentleness by means of a drinking vessel'...huh?
Begone dull care?

However, I do see how it relates to 'Consumerism'.
Also, the fact that Murano glassware is now being taken over by the Chinese.

Come to think of it, A de B's connections are....hmmm...way off beam, or stretching it a little.
For 'Empathy', he chooses 'The Twilight of Life' - Tully.
Is he saying we should empathise more with the elderly woman.
She used to be strong and decisive. She had lovers once; she carefully set out with a quiet thrill in the evening.
Now, she's hard to love and maybe she knows this. She gets irritated, she withdraws. But she needs other people to care for her. Anyone can end up in her position.
I think artisticsolution's cartoon, and her interpretation of it, says more; but why the emphasis on women?
Last edited by marjoramblues on Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

marjoramblues
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Re: Hope is...

Post by marjoramblues » Fri Jan 10, 2014 4:27 pm

art and empathy

http://www.jhna.org/index.php/vol-52/19 ... nd-empathy
Gossart and Empathy
We might now return to Gossart’s Hercules and Deianeira as a paradigm of the artist’s approach to the body. The sheer novelty of the pose clearly prompted a new kind of response. The viewer might well try to imagine what such an embrace would feel like; the complex assemblage of the two bodies, the tactile play of interwoven legs, tempts the viewer to resolve the visual puzzle by projecting him- or herself into such a maneuver.

Hans Belting has made a similar point: “We anyway closely relate images to our own life and expect them to interact with our bodies, with which we perceive, imagine, and dream them.” Belting states further, “Bodies perform images (of themselves or even against themselves) as much as they perceive outside images. In this double sense, they are living media that transcend the capacities of their prosthetic media . . . When absent bodies become visible in images, they use a vicarious visibility.”
embodied empathy; imagining twisted legs
pictorial empathy; contacting others

Kurt
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Re: Hope is...

Post by Kurt » Sat Jan 11, 2014 5:28 am

marjoramblues wrote:
Kurt wrote:I "HOPE" that when it's all done and dusted in the end the one thing that still remains is love
'Love'...whatever that is :wink:

I hope that when 'it's all done and dusted in the end...' the one thing that still remains is...water.
Where 'it' means war, strife and God knows what else...

What did you mean by 'it' ?
Yeh I just liked the title of the thread so I expressed something I normally keep to myself. It's in relation to a personal experience I had some years ago impossible to explain as it can only be experienced. I wish I could but I can't, cheers

artisticsolution
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Re: Hope is...

Post by artisticsolution » Sat Jan 11, 2014 4:15 pm

M: not sure I see it as 'superstitious'...clearly, there are no guarantees of anything....hmmm... except bed sores if you lie in bed too long...


AS: Did I ever tell you I am the inventor of the geriatric conveyor? lol It hasn't caught on yet, as it is such a revolutionary idea that people are still not comfortable with the practicality of it. :wink: And I agree with them that our seniors should be taken care of lovingly, but that the fact is lovingly or not....there are practical needs that not even the best of caretakers can provide with assurance that it will get done. I speak from experience when my mom was in an assisted living home after she had surgery in ca. That place was a nightmare...the staff was torn every which way and the patients were lucky if they got their meds on time.

Okay...so back to my idea....and in keeping with my hope for the continued good life in the future. I was in the pool a few years back, I had been cleaning the yard and jumped in clothes and all because I was about to have a heatstroke...lol...anyway, while I was floating there...I took my tshirt and kinda pulled it around my butt and gathered it in front and slung it over the egde of the pool. I found it was most pleasant...it cradled me like a baby in the water! So I was thinking about practical applications for this new found heavenly position...lol.

Then my mind wandered to my fear of the future and how I would want to be cared for if I was not able to care for myself. God knows I don't want bedsores...and I don't want my children to stop their lives in order to take care of me either...but I also don't want to be forgotten in a home somewhere. Anyway I thought about how it would be kinda fun if I was place in my sling and it was attached to a kind of conveyor belt like in the dry cleaners...lol. And that it would convey me along from room to room...or as I like to think about it...station to station...and each station there would be people or a person...who's only job would be to perform that certain task. Like one station would be the washing station....where I would be dipped in a nice bath/pool....or showered...whatever...the next station could be the feeding station...one for meds...games...tv...massage ....art (or what ever your interest)...exercise...etc...then off to bed.

Most people laugh when I tell them about this idea....and a few have gotten angry because they see it as cold and impersonal...but in my view of things...and old folk homes is worse than cold and impersonal. And while it might not cure all bed sores...my hope would be for a better system for my country than is in place now...where the rich are the only ones who can afford a staff to take care of them.

All it would take is a different way of thinking about nursing homes where the staff all does the same jobs. Too many things to remember...whereas if each person of the staff had their one area of expertise....nothing to forget....did you bathe her or did you not...did she get her meds or did she not...are the only types of questions that would be asked each employee.

marjoramblues
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Re: Hope is...

Post by marjoramblues » Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:58 am

Kurt wrote:
I "HOPE" that when it's all done and dusted in the end the one thing that still remains is love.

Yeh I just liked the title of the thread so I expressed something I normally keep to myself. It's in relation to a personal experience I had some years ago impossible to explain as it can only be experienced. I wish I could but I can't, cheers
About the title - I thought it might be a bit too twee, as in the 'Love is...' cartoons.
Could have gone with 'Hopeless in Seattle' :wink:

No worries, there is no expectation that people open up their hearts and let it all pour out.
Just a way of thinking about what philo or other texts might inspire or remind us of 'hope etc.'
Also, perhaps to share how a particular philosophy might have shone a light...all the better to see the way forward...
Cheers!

marjoramblues
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Re: Hope is...

Post by marjoramblues » Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:29 pm

AS: Did I ever tell you I am the inventor of the geriatric conveyor? lol It hasn't caught on yet, as it is such a revolutionary idea that people are still not comfortable with the practicality of it. :wink: And I agree with them that our seniors should be taken care of lovingly, but that the fact is lovingly or not....there are practical needs that not even the best of caretakers can provide with assurance that it will get done. I speak from experience when my mom was in an assisted living home after she had surgery in ca. That place was a nightmare...the staff was torn every which way and the patients were lucky if they got their meds on time.

M: Sorry to hear about your Mum's experience; it is also hard to watch usually caring staff under stress.

Okay...so back to my idea....and in keeping with my hope for the continued good life in the future.

... my mind wandered to my fear of the future and how I would want to be cared for if I was not able to care for myself.
God knows I don't want bedsores...and I don't want my children to stop their lives in order to take care of me either...but I also don't want to be forgotten in a home somewhere. Anyway I thought about how it would be kinda fun if I was place in my sling and it was attached to a kind of conveyor belt like in the dry cleaners...lol. ...station to station...and each station there would be people or a person...who's only job would be to perform that certain task. washing station....the feeding station...one for meds...games...tv...massage ....art ...then off to bed.

M: much better to be in a plastic bubble and rolled about; hmmm, no - think of motion sickness.
what about a stationary bubble with insertions as required... :shock:

... old folk homes is worse than cold and impersonal. And while it might not cure all bed sores...my hope would be for a better system for my country than is in place now...where the rich are the only ones who can afford a staff to take care of them.

M: Not all care homes are the same; unfortunately, the few nurses that do harm get all the publicity.
I agree that some countries have better care/health systems than others.


All it would take is a different way of thinking about nursing homes where the staff all does the same jobs. Too many things to remember...whereas if each person of the staff had their one area of expertise....nothing to forget....did you bathe her or did you not...did she get her meds or did she not...are the only types of questions that would be asked each employee.

M: If you are talking about accountability for errors, then there is a system of key-workers who have responsbility for a group of patients, with a team-leader who organises the daily activities.
Not conveyer-belt style, necessarily :wink: - but inevitably there is routine, together with a care-plan... hopefully involving the wishes of patient and relatives. No sheep-dipping and dunking.


So, we've covered some ground, huh?
Hope, care, empathy, relationships...even work and ethics.

Other than dealing with your fear and hopes for the future, how did you cope during this difficult time.
Philosophically speaking...

artisticsolution
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Re: Hope is...

Post by artisticsolution » Sun Jan 12, 2014 3:46 pm

M: Sorry to hear about your Mum's experience; it is also hard to watch usually caring staff under stress.


AS: Oh they were caring...I think most people are...there were just too few to go around and they did not give meds on time because of it. I am talking hours late. My mom was rushed back to the hospital because she was not given this certain med on time.

M: much better to be in a plastic bubble and rolled about; hmmm, no - think of motion sickness.
what about a stationary bubble with insertions as required... :shock:


AS: No No...have you ever been in a sling? :wink: You can't beat it...much more comfortable than a bubble or wheel chair! Plus you can roll it slightly very easily so one is not sitting in the same position constantly. I am thinking for more practical purpose as caring will always be there...but caring can be a double edge sword too. If you have too many people to care for...I think it is human nature to see to the needs of the ones you prefer...rather than the others. I was thinking that each sling conveyor could have a automatic alarm system that is programmable. SO that when the meds are required, a little ding ding ding could go off (like a seat belt alarm in a car) until the meds are administered and logged....then woosh...off to the next station! lol

M: Not all care homes are the same; unfortunately, the few nurses that do harm get all the publicity.
I agree that some countries have better care/health systems than others.


AS: I agree that not all are the same. I am sure not all here are the same either...although I have had several people in nursing homes here....most just to recoop from operations...but they are the worst! Worse than any hospital stay...caring staff...warm and fuzzy and all that...just given way to much on their plate and not educated enough to make command decisions (i.e. if a patient needs and asks for their meds...they literally can't give them for hours until they call a doctor who does not return calls!) Some of the caretakers told my mom she should bring her meds from home so she could get them on time as they could not contact the doc!

They definitely need some sort of system in place. And this coming from people who were not old and feeble...who could ask to be given their meds! Can you imagine what happens to the ones who can't ask?! Some I saw were just placed in the hallway in a wheelchair and left all day. The was one cute little old lady who had the ability to tip toe sitting in her wheel chair up and down the halls....she did not speak...but boy did she get around! I think she could have tip toed around the world! lol I wondered if she needed meds throughout the day...she certainly wasn't in her room to receive any...the staff would have to hunt her down in the halls! I doubt they would take the time. But they would give her a big smile if they happen to see her during one of her laps around the halls.

Smiles without action can kill a person. I would rather get the meds I need from a sour puss rather than a smile from someone who cared and felt sorry for me that I was in distress from not receiving my meds.(that is the cynical side of me talking)

M: If you are talking about accountability for errors, then there is a system of key-workers who have responsbility for a group of patients, with a team-leader who organises the daily activities.
Not conveyer-belt style, necessarily :wink: - but inevitably there is routine, together with a care-plan... hopefully involving the wishes of patient and relatives. No sheep-dipping and dunking.


AS: Well this sheep would rather be rolled, dipped and dunked on schedule at least here in the states. I don't think there is n american alive who relishes the thought of a nursing home. They are awful!

M:Other than dealing with your fear and hopes for the future, how did you cope during this difficult time.
Philosophically speaking...[/quote]

AS: I didn't have to cope...my Mom was the one who did. I just did what she told me...that is the only way to comfort my mom as she likes to be in control at all times. So when she said she wanted to go home...I took her home....even though I knew it was going to be a long ride home (5 hours) in the car.

We both knew, even as sick as she was, she could take care of herself better than the nursing home. All I did was take orders...lol.

I think at some point though...we will have to have some legislation regarding retirement homes in this country as from what I have seen with family and friends (not just once but every time) is simply atrocious. Being wheeled into a hallway or a lunch room for the whole day is not my idea of practical care. At least the geriatric conveyor keeps you moving....re positioning you at intervals, dings when you have not had a certain task completed. Okay, so maybe you can have an option of what type chair you wanted...maybe one could be a like a shiatsu chair, firm or soft, sling or other....and each day you could mix and match...but always your information could be stored on a thumb drive of sorts which could be "inserted" in your choice of chair at the beginning of each new day. Or something like that....Sci fi baby 8)

marjoramblues
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Re: Hope is...

Post by marjoramblues » Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:39 pm

AS:
I didn't have to cope...my Mom was the one who did. I just did what she told me...that is the only way to comfort my mom as she likes to be in control at all times. So when she said she wanted to go home...I took her home....even though I knew it was going to be a long ride home (5 hours) in the car.

We both knew, even as sick as she was, she could take care of herself better than the nursing home. All I did was take orders...lol.
Yes, you did have to cope. Both of you coped. In what sounds like a terrible situation. So sorry to hear about that.

A home might have a fine 'Philosophy of Care' pinned to the office wall; not worth a damn unless the required resources are in place.

artisticsolution
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Re: Hope is...

Post by artisticsolution » Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:44 pm

Yes, it does appear that resources are scarce. And to think here in the US...for the most part...we sit on a mound of gold. One would think we could afford to take care of people in need, esp. our elderly.

Perhaps all humanity can hope for is to be humane?

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