Philosophy Now Forum

As long as you don't have an overwhelming urge to don a cape and mask this sounds good.

i am thinking of a pair of nunchacks and a scuba diving suit

Hmm, I forgot about your profile pic.

ok and now the shrink thinks that my relationship with my twin brother needs more boundaries and that we have emotional incest - ew gross - and yada yada yada

i think i have had enough of the psychobabble

Hi Kayla

To be honest, I'd never heard of 'emotional incest' before - and had to go look it up. Seems to relate more to adult-child relationships eg where a female/male child assumes the adult emotional role of wife/husband to a father/mother. I guess there is an amount of manipulation involved where it might not even be obvious to those involved.

If you are a twin, then I suppose you have a greater closeness and bond ? And like any other relationship this could be open to certain emotional dependencies which might need boundaries laid down. The 'If you really love me, you would...' is one example. However, you give the impression that you can deal with this kind of pressure.

Like I say, I have no clue - and I think the phrase 'emotional incest' isn't particularly helpful in coming to terms with any manipulative goings-on, even supposing they exist.

I hope that before dismissing the 'psychobabble', your psychiatrist can be held to account for this 'diagnosis'; that is, explain the reasons for it - what have you 'said', what has s/he 'heard'... ie what/where is the 'evidence'.

I'm sure others here will be able to offer up their wisdom/experience/knowledge.

Best -

MB

Forget it. These guys make their money inventing this stuff. New diseases of the mind are "discovered" with each new decade and the drugs to "cure" them so follow.
100 years ago none of this stuff existed. Then there was only normal and a range of differences that gave the human race colour, variety and variation. Since then we have been in the grip of a labelling exercise to judge all of our deviations from the NORMAL.
But who really wants to be normal? Normal is boring; normal is Stepford Wives.

Psychobabble versus Philobubbles

What do you think philosophy (or philosophical counselling ) could offer up in an instance of let's say emotional manipulation ?

Why do we need, feel we need, or others say we need Counselling - and who by; what do they 'know'?
Is it a case of needing,or wanting ?
Does it help or hinder ?
It depends ?

Helps - if it allows us to get on with our lives; feeling more positive about ourselves and others ?
Hinders - if a label is applied and we are stuck in a loop ? or if we don't seek help/advice because of fear of so being labelled and 'treated'...

and all the Wives nod in agreement...

Yes, Kayla - forget it. Forget it, and it will all go away...you are feeling sleepy...this is not real...you are in a dream...we are in a film...'Philo'...cuckoo, cuckoo

yeah i looked it up as well, it does seem to relate more to adult child relationships

but it basically amounts to a relationship that has all the features of incest without the actual you know sex




my brother and i are very close

we are told that as babies we would scream till we are blue in the face and then continue screaming if we were out of sight of each other

as children if one of us was too sick to go to school the other would just totally refuse to go

my father is not one to let children win a battle of wills but we won that one

we held hands way past the point where most siblings hold hands - well into adolescence, until other kids starting making fun of us

even now if we are not in school or our neighbourhood we will often hold hands when we are out

and we dont like being away from each other - although i no longer get hysterics of we are away from each other for more than a day

some grown ups think that we dont have enough boundaries between us

our parents dont want us getting 'too affectionate' with each other when thereis company - i mean some grownups are so dirty minded it is not even funny

but we never do the 'if you loved me you'd do x' thing

anyway the shrink sees that our emotional involvement with each other is unhealthy



to be fair, the shrink helped me get past the hysterics if my brother is missing for a few hours so on further thought i am not going to just give up on the whole going to the shrink every two weeks thing

Doesn't that just mean your brain is hard-wired for more system-computational work than the average person? If you have an interest in math, physics, engineering, then your condition will be an advantage. As long as you are able to function, and you are, I would avoid the drugs, or at least get a second opinion. Personally, when it comes to shrinks, I've never met one who didn't need one.

"Adolescent multiples must break ties with their parents AND with their wombmates."

You both need to set your own timetable for separation and independence. It's best to encourage finding ways to differentiate each other early in childhood, but as you imply this did not occur, but nevertheless, both of you will find your own ways. Example, you may become sloppy and he neat, or you conservative and your brother the radical, just so people can tell you apart. Perhaps you two greatly fear being apart, but the inevitable separation will probably occur in high school where you are now and this can be very difficult and strange to you, when you have always relied on your twin for support.

I would recommend you stay with your therapist, as you have indicated he/she has helped resolve other issues for you. Best wishes to you on your journey of self discovery.

Hi Kayla,

I think you are getting some good feedback from people here. I have been reading this thread with interest and I am glad you believe your therapist is helping you deal with some issues...That is the most important thing.

I got to thinking about your close relationship with your brother which is sort of unrelated to psychiatry, so I hope you don't mind if I go off track here. I just think it is interesting when people in general seem to want to nip happiness or pleasure in the bud. I just never did get that. Now don't get me wrong...I don't mean to say that anything that makes one happy should be considered 'healthy' or 'good'. As I do think some things could be harmful to our well being, especially if those things made us 'feel' bad about ourselves. But like you pointed out in another thread...sometimes things only appear 'wrong' because society tell us that they are wrong...like how you mention long ago in Texas it was considered wrong for a black person to date a white person.

What I am getting at is your close relation with your brother seems like a happy one by your account, and how could an outsider really know if that were true or not? Perhaps that is what all of us are looking for in another? It seems to me we do an awful lot of searching in our lives looking for such relationships. I think it is a mistake for any one to think such relationships "have" to be sexual by definition. It is quite possible for them to be platonic...and quite possible that sex is the very thing that denies such powerful relationships from forming to begin with as sex is a catalyst for jealousy and possessiveness and betrayal and judgment which does not usually appear in close non sexual relationships at least in the same way. Think about it this way...would you feel hurt if your brother found a girlfriend in the same way as if your boyfriend found a girlfriend? There is a different bond in a true intimate relationship...one that can't be broken in the same way or as easily as a sexually intimate relationship. (By 'true intimacy' I mean a bond that is not easily broken by ego.)


After all...it seems to me the term 'soul mates' does not necessarily have to mean a 'romantic' ideal. It can simply mean a person who makes you feel at home...like it is you 2 against the world. I don't know a person alive who would not want to find that in another...if the truth be told.

Perhaps the reason for wanting to split you 2 up is for selfish reasons that your therapist may not be aware of? As it has been an observation of mine that most adults usually don't like to see too much happiness in the world when it is not having to do with themselves directly. It is as if it almost translates into 'decadence' for them somehow. And moreover, I have noticed that, for most adults, the easiest place to begin/control 'too much' happiness taking place is by taking away a child's happiness first...before their own happiness. (for example, criticizing or even banning childish fun/behavior such as holidays like Halloween/Christmas/etc. by using adult concepts of truth/morality) And this is even more fucked up...because a child's happiness is based in innocence...free from "decadence" whereas an adults 'happiness' is probably more likely to be based in decadent thought or at least guilty associations of a learned behavior in regard to 'decadent' thought. This transference is wrong if you ask me. It is the handing down of misguided beliefs that pleasurable feelings = wrongdoing, and that is not necessarily so.

If you do not believe your relationship is a problem for you or your brother...then I don't see why it is. However, if you have a sneaking suspicion that your therapist is correct, then I would ask you if you came to this conclusion before or after your therapist brought it to your attention.

If you or your brother have no problem with the relationship, then I would say you both are very lucky to have each other. In other words, no need to fix it ...if it's not broken.

My example I gave was for same sex twins. My apology for that. The rest remains in tact.
I think for both of you, to assume a hand holding relationship in public at school, would certainly incite some comment. Does your boyfriend, (if he is still around after the racist comment) accept the closeness both your brother and yourself have? Remaining together, exclusively, cancels out the opportunity to separate easily. I am suggesting perhaps its time to create some independance.

as,

i think you may be on to something about adults often not liking to see other people happy

my brother and i - me more than him - being unable to cope with being apart from each other at all was a problem - it got in the way of all sorts of things

but our parents among others - think that our desire to stay together should not influence our decision on what university to go to after high school - going to the right school is more important in their view that us staying together

as far as i am concerned i would rather go to a local community college and stay with him rather than go to harvard and see him for christmas and thanksgiving - i do not see a problem here

and a lot of people seem to have difficulty with the notion of physical affection with no sex - and the idea of sleeping in the same bed without having sex

we never had a problem with the other having a boyfriend or a girlfriend although our closeness was an issue for our dates - we are now dating a brother sister pair who are also very close and understand