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chaz wyman · **Joined:** Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:31 pm **Posts:** 10592

Khalid wrote:

But if we talk about sex , I'm gonna give you a very clear answer .
I can't imagine myself accepting my sister to have sex with a guy before marriage , this is how I grew up as an eastern person not only as a muslim . In the city I live in , people know each other , eastern people are social . Do you want people to say that is khalid's whore sister ??

And how is that your business. Your sister is her own person and should be allowed to make up her own mind.

Do you think your sister will allow you to have sex before marriage?
Will you be a whore if you have sex?
Has she had her clitoris cut off yet?

Khalid · **Joined:** Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:23 am **Posts:** 416

John wrote:

you're statement about self selection seems to mean nothing though because you end it by saying that they would need to respect the majority view so they would still be subject to shariah law.

They can form a secular party , speak their minds in media channels or even invite people to protest . If they managed to convince people to change the whole system , then change can be possible and legal democratically .

Quote:

But you seem to care about what fellow Egyptians or other Muslims get up to so it seems that you're not bothered whether others burn in hell as long as they surrender as much of their money to you on their way there.

Isn't it their choice ? Isn't it their freedom ? , you really make me confused , if I say we are going to enforce the Shariah on everybody then I'm radical , if I say only on muslims who choose the shariah with democratic practice and freedom of will , then I'm uncaring about others' destiny in the afterlife . doesn't everyone has a mind to choose his path in life ?

Quote:

Why are you surprised? You said you didn't care what visitors to your country did so why would shopkeepers care whether non Muslims drink booze or read porn magazines?

I don't care what visitors do but alcohol and porn trade is forbidden in Islam to anyone . There is nothing like , it's fine if you are going to sell it to foreigners or non-muslims ! And I don't about .

Quote:

A friend told me recently that he'd been in his local corner shop and noticed that all of the alcohol had been removed from the shelves. when he asked why the shopkeeper replied that as they were Muslims they didn;t think it was right for them to be selling alcohol. His immediate thoughts were "well done for standing up for your principles" but he changed this somewhat when the local newspaper reported that the real reason was that they had lost their license to sell alcohol, for the second time, for selling it to children.

You want to say all muslims living in the west are like this ? Anyway I'm personally wouldn't do that according to the way I understand my religion .

Khalid · **Joined:** Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:23 am **Posts:** 416

chaz wyman wrote:

Khalid wrote:

But if we talk about sex , I'm gonna give you a very clear answer .
I can't imagine myself accepting my sister to have sex with a guy before marriage , this is how I grew up as an eastern person not only as a muslim . In the city I live in , people know each other , eastern people are social . Do you want people to say that is khalid's whore sister ??

And how is that your business. Your sister is her own person and should be allowed to make up her own mind.

Do you think your sister will allow you to have sex before marriage?
Will you be a whore if you have sex?
Has she had her clitoris cut off yet?

I don't know , I was born like this with this retroactive eastern tendency . I can't accept that western freedom with women in my life . Call me what you will . I never did fornication in the 21 years of my life , so I will not accept any justification from my sister , wife or daughter to do so and make us lose our honor or our grace .

chaz wyman · **Joined:** Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:31 pm **Posts:** 10592

Khalid wrote:

chaz wyman wrote:

Khalid wrote:

But if we talk about sex , I'm gonna give you a very clear answer .
I can't imagine myself accepting my sister to have sex with a guy before marriage , this is how I grew up as an eastern person not only as a muslim . In the city I live in , people know each other , eastern people are social . Do you want people to say that is khalid's whore sister ??

And how is that your business. Your sister is her own person and should be allowed to make up her own mind.

Do you think your sister will allow you to have sex before marriage?
Will you be a whore if you have sex?
Has she had her clitoris cut off yet?

I don't know , I was born like this with this retroactive eastern tendency . I can't accept that western freedom with women in my life . Call me what you will . I never did fornication in the 21 years of my life , so I will not accept any justification from my sister , wife or daughter to do so and make us lose our honor or our grace .

A virgin? This explains much about why you are so up-tight.
What you need is a good shag from a strong woman that will tell your sorry arse what to do.
Maybe you should wank more - does the koran allow you that?
You were not 'born like this' - you are socially constructed.
You are an example why Islam and Democracy are incompatible.

John · **Posted:** Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:14 pm

Khalid wrote:

John wrote:

you're statement about self selection seems to mean nothing though because you end it by saying that they would need to respect the majority view so they would still be subject to shariah law.

They can form a secular party , speak their minds in media channels or even invite people to protest . If they managed to convince people to change the whole system , then change can be possible and legal democratically .

Do you think that foreign nationals living in Egypt, who are not Muslim, should be subject to Sharia law?

Khalid wrote:

Quote:

But you seem to care about what fellow Egyptians or other Muslims get up to so it seems that you're not bothered whether others burn in hell as long as they surrender as much of their money to you on their way there.

Isn't it their choice ? Isn't it their freedom ? , you really make me confused , if I say we are going to enforce the Shariah on everybody then I'm radical , if I say only on muslims who choose the shariah with democratic practice and freedom of will , then I'm uncaring about others' destiny in the afterlife . doesn't everyone has a mind to choose his path in life ?

I apologise for the use of sarcasm as it doesn't always translate well but I wasn't trying to portray you as uncaring. I was attempting to show how ridiculous the application of religious law was to some people but not to others.

I don't think the state should ever enforce religious laws that can only be justified on the basis of faith. And you can't say that everyone has a mind to chose their own path if you're going to impose a law on them that can only be justified as a matter of faith because it will be irrational to anyone who does not possess that faith.

If you want to ban alcohol then make a case for it based on something rational like the harm it does to society or whatever but don't do it just because an ancient book claims it is the will of God. If you believe it is the will of God then don't drink alcohol but leave others alone if they're not harming you.

I've just realised that presented a very Rawlsian argument here but oh well, sometimes liberals get it right.

Khalid wrote:

Quote:

Why are you surprised? You said you didn't care what visitors to your country did so why would shopkeepers care whether non Muslims drink booze or read porn magazines?

I don't care what visitors do but alcohol and porn trade is forbidden in Islam to anyone . There is nothing like , it's fine if you are going to sell it to foreigners or non-muslims ! And I don't about .

It's double standards if you're happy to assist people in doing things you think are wrong just because there's money in it.

Khalid wrote:

Quote:

A friend told me recently that he'd been in his local corner shop and noticed that all of the alcohol had been removed from the shelves. when he asked why the shopkeeper replied that as they were Muslims they didn;t think it was right for them to be selling alcohol. His immediate thoughts were "well done for standing up for your principles" but he changed this somewhat when the local newspaper reported that the real reason was that they had lost their license to sell alcohol, for the second time, for selling it to children.

You want to say all muslims living in the west are like this ? Anyway I'm personally wouldn't do that according to the way I understand my religion .

Maybe I misunderstood your statement above when you wrote "There is nothing like , it's fine if you are going to sell it to foreigners or non-muslims" because I thought you meant it was fine to sell these things to foreigners and non Muslims. If I've misunderstood you then let me know.

But the only point I'm making is that be careful of claiming the moral high ground.

John · **Posted:** Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:18 pm

Khalid wrote:

I don't know , I was born like this with this retroactive eastern tendency . I can't accept that western freedom with women in my life . Call me what you will . I never did fornication in the 21 years of my life , so I will not accept any justification from my sister , wife or daughter to do so and make us lose our honor or our grace .

I can understand, even if I think it's wrong, why you might consider it a personal loss of honour if your sister or whatever has sex outside of marriage but would you also consider it a loss of grace? I.e. would Allah punish you for it?

Given that you seem to focus on sisters, wives and daughters in a lot of this I've got a question for you: do you believe it is possible for a husband to rape his wife?

Kayla · **Joined:** Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:31 am **Posts:** 1168

Khalid wrote:

Do you want people to say that is khalid's whore sister ??

what neighbors think can justify all sorts of things

like forbidding interracial dating and marriage

my boyfriend is black, i am not

i know some people think i am a whore because of this and as far as i am concerned they can fuck themselves

i am fortunate that my family agrees with me that they can fuck themselves - except for my mom who never swears so she thinks they can hump themselves

if i were living in the 1950s what the neighbors think would have mattered a lot more - but would that have made it any more right?

Khalid · **Joined:** Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:23 am **Posts:** 416

John wrote:

Do you think that foreign nationals living in Egypt, who are not Muslim, should be subject to Sharia law?

No , they shouldn't .

Quote:

I apologise for the use of sarcasm as it doesn't always translate well but I wasn't trying to portray you as uncaring. I was attempting to show how ridiculous the application of religious law was to some people but not to others.

I don't think the state should ever enforce religious laws that can only be justified on the basis of faith. And you can't say that everyone has a mind to chose their own path if you're going to impose a law on them that can only be justified as a matter of faith because it will be irrational to anyone who does not possess that faith.

If you want to ban alcohol then make a case for it based on something rational like the harm it does to society or whatever but don't do it just because an ancient book claims it is the will of God. If you believe it is the will of God then don't drink alcohol but leave others alone if they're not harming you.

I've just realised that presented a very Rawlsian argument here but oh well, sometimes liberals get it right.

I know that drugs are banned in many European countries because of it's dangerous side effects on health, well why don't we consider alcohol as a similar thing ? Anyway I don't think that Islamic law shall be applied by any mean today , there are many complicated problems that need to be solved first . Even the Quran when came with the (right and wrong , or good and evil) gradually . It started with saying , never get near praying when you are on drunk , then it said don't drink . So I can't sudden;y come and say hey guys , Islamic rule is going to take place from today . It can't happen this way .

Quote:

Maybe I misunderstood your statement above when you wrote "There is nothing like , it's fine if you are going to sell it to foreigners or non-muslims" because I thought you meant it was fine to sell these things to foreigners and non Muslims. If I've misunderstood you then let me know.

Yeah , you misunderstood me . Islam doesn't say sell alcohol to non-muslims cause they are strangers and you don't have to care about them . It's totally wrong for anyone to think like that .

Quote:

But the only point I'm making is that be careful of claiming the moral high ground.

All people will be brought in the inevitable day with all their actions recorded .

Quote:

I can understand, even if I think it's wrong, why you might consider it a personal loss of honour if your sister or whatever has sex outside of marriage but would you also consider it a loss of grace? I.e. would Allah punish you for it?

Yes , a man who let's his wife do fornication with other men will be punished in hell .

Quote:

do you believe it is possible for a husband to rape his wife?

If muslims claim to follow the right and true religion , how might God sends a message allowing a man to rape his wife ? How can that be human , merciful or even rational to accept ?

Khalid · **Joined:** Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:23 am **Posts:** 416

Kayla wrote:

Khalid wrote:

Do you want people to say that is khalid's whore sister ??

what neighbors think can justify all sorts of things

like forbidding interracial dating and marriage

my boyfriend is black, i am not

i know some people think i am a whore because of this and as far as i am concerned they can fuck themselves

i am fortunate that my family agrees with me that they can fuck themselves - except for my mom who never swears so she thinks they can hump themselves

if i were living in the 1950s what the neighbors think would have mattered a lot more - but would that have made it any more right?

In our society , yes it would .

John · **Posted:** Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:32 am

Khalid wrote:

John wrote:

Do you think that foreign nationals living in Egypt, who are not Muslim, should be subject to Sharia law?

No , they shouldn't .

Further down you seem to be saying that shariah law can't be applied yet because there are other issues to sort out first but you seem to suggest that it could eventually apply, although not for non Muslims. Is that what you believe?

Khalid wrote:

I know that drugs are banned in many European countries because of it's dangerous side effects on health, well why don't we consider alcohol as a similar thing ?

That's an argument based on rationality rather than an appeal to faith so even if I disagree with it I think you're entitled to make it in that way.

Khalid wrote:

Quote:

I can understand, even if I think it's wrong, why you might consider it a personal loss of honour if your sister or whatever has sex outside of marriage but would you also consider it a loss of grace? I.e. would Allah punish you for it?

Yes , a man who let's his wife do fornication with other men will be punished in hell .

I'm assuming she does it without telling him and not with his consent so in that case would the husband still be punished?

Khalid wrote:

Quote:

do you believe it is possible for a husband to rape his wife?

If muslims claim to follow the right and true religion , how might God sends a message allowing a man to rape his wife ? How can that be human , merciful or even rational to accept ?

It's not an entirely uncommon belief and even in the West it's a relatively recent concept because the it was considered a woman's duty to fulfil such needs in her husband. But just to be clear I'm not necessarily referring to violence. I mean any case where the woman doesn't want to have sex and the man coerces her possibly through physical or emotional threats. I asked because, given some of your previous answers, I wondered whether you thought a woman should be subservient to a man in marriage particularly with regards to sex.

Khalid · **Joined:** Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:23 am **Posts:** 416

John wrote:

Further down you seem to be saying that shariah law can't be applied yet because there are other issues to sort out first but you seem to suggest that it could eventually apply, although not for non Muslims. Is that what you believe?

Yes , that's close . I'm also not a person capable of talking about details like , how or when will it be applied , whether it will be totally applied or it will be one of several sources of legislation . But what I can be sure of , is economical and national security side . Quick and touchable economical improvements must take place before anything , also corruption must end , national security issue , like the rights of Christians , they shouldn't feel worried or afraid of anything for even one second and the government is responsible for that . Our borders , should be well protected . Also education and health care . As I said before fixing and saving a nation before anything .

Quote:

I'm assuming she does it without telling him and not with his consent so in that case would the husband still be punished?

no , I don't think he will be punished as long as he doesn't know .

Quote:

I mean any case where the woman doesn't want to have sex and the man coerces her possibly through physical or emotional threats.

No coercing in a relationship based on love , personally if my wife doesn't want to continue life with me , I will simply let her go . How may I live with someone who hates me or doesn't want me .

Quote:

I asked because, given some of your previous answers, I wondered whether you thought a woman should be subservient to a man in marriage particularly with regards to sex.

If she doesn't want to have sex with me , then she is divorced , just like that . And I disrespect any man who would do something different !

Kayla · **Joined:** Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:31 am **Posts:** 1168

Khalid wrote:

If she doesn't want to have sex with me , then she is divorced , just like that . And I disrespect any man who would do something different !

just to be clear

you are saying that woman must never refuse herself sexually to her husband?

Kayla · **Joined:** Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:31 am **Posts:** 1168

Khalid wrote:

Kayla wrote:

if i were living in the 1950s what the neighbors think would have mattered a lot more - but would that have made it any more right?

In our society , yes it would .

so using your own reasoning

in 1950s texas it would be morally wrong for a white girl to date a black guy for no reason other than that everyone thought that it was wrong

or more generally

whether or not some action is wrong is determined solely by what most people think is wrong

am i missing anything

Kayla · **Joined:** Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:31 am **Posts:** 1168

Khalid wrote:

I know that drugs are banned in many European countries because of it's dangerous side effects on health, well why don't we consider alcohol as a similar thing ?

the overwhelming view among medical and mental health professionals as well as specialists in addiction is that the prohibition of drugs (ie war on drugs - has been a huge failure

this would be just as true of alcohol

here in the usa we tried to ban alcohol in the 1920

that turned out to be a cure worse than the disease

when marijuana was banned in the usa, the primary reason given for the ban was that it makes black men rape white women and this is obvious bullshit

so whoever wrote the quran obviously did not know these things, did not know that prohibition did not work - at least if you take it to be dictation from god

John · **Posted:** Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:43 am

Kayla wrote:

Khalid wrote:

If she doesn't want to have sex with me , then she is divorced , just like that . And I disrespect any man who would do something different !

just to be clear

you are saying that woman must never refuse herself sexually to her husband?

Pretty much the same question I was going to ask so I look forward to hearing the answer.

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