In defense of colonism

How should society be organised, if at all?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
Seleucus
Posts: 662
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 3:53 am

Re: In defense of colonism

Post by Seleucus »

Greta wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:53 am
Seleucus wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:32 amI used to think this noble savage stuff too ...
If you cannot appreciate the positive aspects of tribal peoples or other species - who are certainly not all "savage" - then there is no point in continuing. I've given my view and you disagree. I'd rather note waste time butting my head against a fixed prejudice and silly misinformation. I get enough of that from Nick.
Like I say, I'm open to the idea there may have been ancient noble races, maybe back in Africa or the Neandertals, but from my extensive first-hand experience with savages, what I observe is not nobility but ignorance, superstition, apathy, deceitfulness, unreliability, and cruelty. This character of savages was common knowledge to all who lived in the colonies as recently as fifty and one-hundred years ago and can easily be found in any of innumerable works of colonial literature. That what is obviously true should be taboo to frankly say today is sorry. Savages live hard lives and they die hard, it isn't beautiful. The character of savages can change, but it takes a long long time, Caesar writes at length about the lifestyle and character of the savages in his Gallic Wars, people who are today the Europeans. Those of us privileged enough to know how to tie our shoes and to hold a pencil, and even who are knowledgeable, rational, diligent, value honesty, organization and morality have some duty to do something about the mean lives people are suffering in 3rd World countries, we didn't cause it, but maybe we can do something to end it.
User avatar
Greta
Posts: 4389
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:10 am

Re: In defense of colonism

Post by Greta »

It's easy to focus on the negatives of those you dislike. Our enemies are always irredeemably bad and it's always been so. Maybe you'd get along with Nick? His enemy is "secular society" and he believes secularists to be irredeemably bad on all measures too.

To fall into the subjective trap is naive on a philosophy forum and it constitutes a logical and, subsequently, a moral failure on your part.

I can see the twain won't meet between us. I am interested in the nature of reality, not ideology or these kinds of social games. Let's forget it.
Last edited by Greta on Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Seleucus
Posts: 662
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 3:53 am

Re: In defense of colonism

Post by Seleucus »

I know very well how savages live, in cramped, sweltering, stuffy, ad hoc huts, swarmed by mosquitoes, surrounded by garbage, infected with scabies, and if they work at all, it's in some dreadful occupation like prostitution or open pit mining. I'm not gonna call that noble. Get real!
User avatar
Seleucus
Posts: 662
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 3:53 am

Re: In defense of colonism

Post by Seleucus »

Anyway, the majority of 3rd Worlders aren't savages, they're peasants who now live in polluted, impoverished, corrupt mega-cities. That doesn't mind you change the point about apathy, dishonesty, inability to plan or organize, or tie their own shoe laces.
User avatar
Greta
Posts: 4389
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:10 am

Re: In defense of colonism

Post by Greta »

Seleucus wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:13 amI know very well how savages live, in cramped, sweltering, stuffy huts, swarmed by mosquitoes, surrounded by garbage, infected with scabies, and if they work at all, it's in some dreadful occupation like open pit mining. I'm not gonna call that noble. Get real!
Why say that when I explicitly said that I don't subscribe to "noble savage" naivete? Why these lawyer games on a philosophy forum?

Like some others you are just here to sprout and "expose your enemies". Childish, silly stuff. Why don't you go back to white supremacy forums? Why pretend that your prejudice has anything whatsoever to do with philosophy?

Where you see inferior beings, I just see other people living in situations I am most grateful not to endure. I certainly would not want to gloat over their hardships or manipulate their problems as a lever for judgement. They are just other living, intelligent beings trying to live their lives.

I assume that you have similar contempt for other species as well? Maybe we should wipe them all out too? Then, once it's all just us whites and our technology we can start eliminating the poor, the old, the disabled, the infirm, the lazy, the recalcitrant and the disturbed. Once they are eliminated we can start weeding out the weakest and dumbest, and just keep on pruning until the surface of the Earth consists only of Aryan supermen and their machines ... until the white men start looking like a liability ...
User avatar
Seleucus
Posts: 662
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 3:53 am

Re: In defense of colonism

Post by Seleucus »

Greta wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:22 am
Seleucus wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:13 amI know very well how savages live, in cramped, sweltering, stuffy huts, swarmed by mosquitoes, surrounded by garbage, infected with scabies, and if they work at all, it's in some dreadful occupation like open pit mining. I'm not gonna call that noble. Get real!
Why say that when I explicitly said that I don't subscribe to "noble savage" naivete?
Maybe when I read this: "beauty of the past, such as other species and tribal humans"?
Where you see inferior beings, I just see other people living in situations I am most grateful not to endure. I certainly would not want to gloat over their hardships or manipulate their problems as a lever for judgement. They are just other living, intelligent beings trying to live their lives.
Call it as you like, "inferior" or something very objective like "82". I'm saying that 82 isn't an IQ that could be called "intelligent beings". I don't know if humans have a natural IQ of 50ish or if its the result of living in a corrupt 3rd World society? But it is the case. And it isn't a thing of "beauty" it correlates with disease and poverty and all sorts of grief. The fact I know my IQ is above 82 doesn't mean I "gloat", it means I value what intelligence can give to people the world and hope others can share in the miracle.
I assume that you have similar contempt for other species as well? Maybe we should wipe them all out too? Then, once it's all just us whites and our technology we can start eliminating the poor, the old, the disabled, the infirm, the lazy, the recalcitrant and the disturbed. Once they are eliminated we can start weeding out the weakest and dumbest, and just keep on pruning until the surface of the Earth consists only of Aryan supermen and their machines ... until the white men start looking like a liability ...
Obviously you don't want to preserve infirm-ness, disability, poorness and disturbness, right? If we say we want to put an end to those things that would make us moral and decent people, wouldn't it? The issue of the animals is a difficult moral puzzle, I agree. But with human's I'm opposed to leaving the wretches to their sh1t holes for two reasons, one, if we can help then it is unethical not to, and two, 3rd Worlders left as they are do and will continue to pose a threat to us more advanced civilizations.
User avatar
vegetariantaxidermy
Posts: 13983
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am
Location: Narniabiznus

Re: In defense of colonism

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Seleucus wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:13 am I know very well how savages live, in cramped, sweltering, stuffy, ad hoc huts, swarmed by mosquitoes, surrounded by garbage, infected with scabies, and if they work at all, it's in some dreadful occupation like prostitution or open pit mining. I'm not gonna call that noble. Get real!
Again, I know that the US is a shit-hole but aren't you being a bit harsh, considering it's your home?
User avatar
Greta
Posts: 4389
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:10 am

Re: In defense of colonism

Post by Greta »

There is a difference between "third world societies" and indigenous societies.

Whatever, you need not worry yourself because they are obviously in deep trouble. Why one should hate them for being in trouble is beyond me.

This is a competitive world, increasingly globally connected, and this big, endless free ride otherwise known as nature is now running out. This means that nations and cultures are positioning themselves for the future as winners and losers.

No doubt many developing countries are in dire straits due to violent and controlling militias and corrupt elites (something that so-called developed nations seems to be apeing) but that's just how it is. I see no reason to hate them.

In my experience, any given population will split roughly between progressives and conservatives. It doesn't matter what culture, I will tend to get along better with the progressives and find the conservatives to be annoyingly dumb, irrational, selfish and bullying.
User avatar
Seleucus
Posts: 662
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 3:53 am

Re: In defense of colonism

Post by Seleucus »

Should we aim to live in some sort of enlightened technological utopia? Maybe so. But I think that drifts from the main point of the article which is that today in 2017 the colonial project is sitting unfinished and has left the 3rd World in a kind of Frankenstein state unable to take care of itself, the remedy is some sort of relationship of economic exploitation to finance and also motivate the continued development of the 3rd World under the enlightened guidance of the 1st.

(I agree that nature is essentially doomed and we ought to be preparing for a future in domes and in space.)

I hate savages because it is a pitiable thing to be a savage. They need to be helped so they can have yoga, and salt-water taffy, and read Rumi, and jog in parks on weekends. I'm serious. As for the 3rd World, I hate it because I fear it, it is a threat if left as is to advanced human civilization.

As far as leftism and rightism being inevitable, I think it grows out of resentment. In a healthy tri-part Indo-Aryan society everyone knows their place and feels valued for their role.
marjoram_blues
Posts: 1629
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 12:50 pm

Re: In defense of colonism

Post by marjoram_blues »

Another spreader of Hate and Fear.
Get outta here, you raving lunatics.
Seriously.
User avatar
Seleucus
Posts: 662
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 3:53 am

Re: In defense of colonism

Post by Seleucus »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:43 am
Seleucus wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:13 am I know very well how savages live, in cramped, sweltering, stuffy, ad hoc huts, swarmed by mosquitoes, surrounded by garbage, infected with scabies, and if they work at all, it's in some dreadful occupation like prostitution or open pit mining. I'm not gonna call that noble. Get real!
Again, I know that the US is a shit-hole but aren't you being a bit harsh, considering it's your home?
I agree. America is in some danger of becoming a 3rd World country. That's why Trumps mission to preserve the middle-class is so important.
User avatar
Seleucus
Posts: 662
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 3:53 am

Re: In defense of colonism

Post by Seleucus »

marjoram_blues wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:20 am Another spreader of Hate and Fear.
Get outta here, you raving lunatics.
Seriously.
This thread is for the discussion of Bruce Gilley's "The case for colonialism", could you illustrate your point with reference to the article. Links to the work can be found on previous pages of the thread. Tx.
marjoram_blues
Posts: 1629
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 12:50 pm

Re: In defense of colonism

Post by marjoram_blues »

Seleucus wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:23 am
marjoram_blues wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:20 am Another spreader of Hate and Fear.
Get outta here, you raving lunatics.
Seriously.
This thread is for the discussion of Bruce Gilley's "The case for colonialism", could you illustrate your point with reference to the article. Links to the work can be found on previous pages of the thread. Tx.
Yes, I know. You said that already. Consider me a troll. Complain to the authorities.
User avatar
vegetariantaxidermy
Posts: 13983
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am
Location: Narniabiznus

Re: In defense of colonism

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Seleucus wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:23 am
marjoram_blues wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:20 am Another spreader of Hate and Fear.
Get outta here, you raving lunatics.
Seriously.
This thread is for the discussion of Bruce Gilley's "The case for colonialism", could you illustrate your point with reference to the article. Links to the work can be found on previous pages of the thread. Tx.
I somehow doubt that Bruce Gilley would be very pleased to know that you are promoting his article.
User avatar
Seleucus
Posts: 662
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 3:53 am

Re: In defense of colonism

Post by Seleucus »

marjoram_blues wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:27 am
Seleucus wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:23 am
marjoram_blues wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:20 am Another spreader of Hate and Fear.
Get outta here, you raving lunatics.
Seriously.
This thread is for the discussion of Bruce Gilley's "The case for colonialism", could you illustrate your point with reference to the article. Links to the work can be found on previous pages of the thread. Tx.
Yes, I know. You said that already. Consider me a troll. Complain to the authorities.
Sounds like you are a Christian. Why don't you share a quotation from Jesus. Like, 'if you own anything like a purse or a belt, sell it and buy a sword', Luke 22:36, what do you think that means?
Post Reply