In defense of colonism

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Seleucus
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Re: In defense of colonism

Post by Seleucus »

Arising_uk wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:05 am
Seleucus wrote:Bruce Gilley's "The case for colonialism" rocked the intellectual world this last couple weeks. ...
I seriously doubt it rocked anything but hey ho.
Bruce Gilley wrote:... Western colonialism was, as a general rule, both objectively beneficial ...
I wonder what Mr Gilley would make of the research that tends to show that the British held back India from industrialization and in fact deindustrialised them, destroyed their share of world trade and reduced their per capita income during their reign?

Still, looks like that is all reversing now.
I guess what he would say is that firstly a lifetime of anti-colonial ideologically directed social science research could demonstrate that pigs can fly. Secondly he would say that the overall benefit of European involvement in paleolithic and early feudal societies was positive. This seems quite obvious to me, the problem seems to lie in the fact that the end of the European colonial period left these countries with state systems for which local psychological resources were not sufficient to manage, hence the stagnation of development and horror-show living conditions in the 3rd World since the end of colonization. I've heard the claim before about the industrial capacity of India and took just a few minutes to peek at some of the articles cited around the claim. The raw numbers may or may not have merit, probably they are quite pliable, I see estimates range from a decline to a 28.9% increase in Maddison (1971); either way, add in a efficient management and administration, establishment of a universal justice system, agricultural reform, an education system, centuries of peace and defense, modern medicine, outlawing of "barbaric cultural practices" (Thugs, sati, etc), infrastructure development, railroads and so on, the balance in my view, unless one is a Luddite or Pol Pot supporter is overwhelmingly positive. A common criticism of colonism is that wealth was plundered. Gilley, and others too have noted that all that development had to be paid for somehow, overall the greatest share of cost was borne by the colonizing states who invested much more in their colonies than they profited from them, hence the easiness they were let go of by the colonizers when it came time to tighten belts after the war.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: In defense of colonism

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

So your colon cleansing is an ongoing thing then?
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Greta
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Re: In defense of colonism

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Then again, there were the genocides and attempted genocides.

Funny thing, this "colonism". Go to a region, slaughter the locals, steal the resources, rape the women - and then teach them to be civilised ...
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Re: In defense of colonism

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Here's seleucus's civilised society. Those poor cops. They had to kill or they would have been killed first, by a screwdriver. Are American cops fed lsd or methamphetamine? Why do American cops have to scream at people? Who responds well to being screamed at? Are they seriously in fear for their lives here? Oh. Hang on. The guy's black. He deserved it then. 'nuf said.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUp4bDa9M3o

OMG. And they let thugs like this walk around with loaded penises. What a hellish place to live.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ1qMUmsTy8
Last edited by vegetariantaxidermy on Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Arising_uk
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Re: In defense of colonism

Post by Arising_uk »

Seleucus wrote: I guess what he would say is that firstly a lifetime of anti-colonial ideologically directed social science research could demonstrate that pigs can fly. ...
Ah! So basically a right-wing marxist upon whose dogma no economics will impinge.

No matter, India is now on the way back to where it was before the EIC arrived. Personally, if you really care about your people and nation, you ought to be concentrating upon the future issues rather this old racialist tosh.
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Seleucus
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Re: In defense of colonism

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Arising_uk wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:28 pm
Seleucus wrote: I guess what he would say is that firstly a lifetime of anti-colonial ideologically directed social science research could demonstrate that pigs can fly. ...
Ah! So basically a right-wing marxist upon whose dogma no economics will impinge.
I'm thinking calculating the industrial output of a whole sub-continent across half a millennium is probably going to to be pretty complex and debatable. Gilley's point isn't to the raw total industrial output in any case but to the overall sum total benefit of the process.
No matter, India is now on the way back to where it was before the EIC arrived. Personally, if you really care about your people and nation, you ought to be concentrating upon the future issues rather this old racialist tosh.
I agree with you about the value of national self-determination. What is probably Gilley's overall best point, one which has crossed my mind many times so probably why it jumps out at me, is the use of foreign impartial judiciary and police force as an anti-corruption force. Gilley gives the example of the replacement of 6000 corrupt customs and port officials with a Swiss corporation who then turned operations back over to Jakarta after about a decade. This was not a rare thing historically, there is a term for it which is Latin or Italian but I can't remember what it is at the moment. Lycurgus and Muhammad both had this sort of role as foreigners who arrived to improve administration.

To put it in very simple terms, there are just not enough excellent engineers, pilots, doctors, dentists, police chiefs and judges in the 3rd World. That's an obvious objective fact that the quality and quantity of people who can run a power station or administrate a hospital food service are by orders of magnitude fewer per capita in Indonesia than they are in Holland. Cannibalism was common in Sumatra and Borneo and wife burning and even ceremonial murder of whole estates of slaves in Bali and Java up into the last century until they were finally put to an end by the Dutch colonists.
Greta wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:14 amThen again, there were the genocides and attempted genocides.

Funny thing, this "colonism". Go to a region, slaughter the locals, steal the resources, rape the women - and then teach them to be civilised ...
This is probably a weak point since the colonial administration almost certainly prevented far more bloody internecine wars under Pax Britannia and was quite easily arguably very significantly less corrupt and universal in its application of justice as well as in social values than the locals were.
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Re: In defense of colonism

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Seleucus wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:40 pm
Arising_uk wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:28 pm
Seleucus wrote: I guess what he would say is that firstly a lifetime of anti-colonial ideologically directed social science research could demonstrate that pigs can fly. ...
Ah! So basically a right-wing marxist upon whose dogma no economics will impinge.
I'm thinking calculating the industrial output of a whole sub-continent across half a millennium is probably going to to be pretty complex and debatable. Gilley's point isn't to the raw total industrial output in any case but to the overall sum total benefit of the process.
No matter, India is now on the way back to where it was before the EIC arrived. Personally, if you really care about your people and nation, you ought to be concentrating upon the future issues rather this old racialist tosh.
I agree with you about the value of national self-determination. What is probably Gilley's overall best point, one which has crossed my mind many times so probably why it jumps out at me, is the use of foreign impartial judiciary and police force as an anti-corruption force. Gilley gives the example of the replacement of 6000 corrupt customs and port officials with a Swiss corporation who then turned operations back over to Jakarta after about a decade. This was not a rare thing historically, there is a term for it which is Latin or Italian but I can't remember what it is at the moment. Lycurgus and Muhammad both had this sort of role as foreigners who arrived to improve administration.

To put it in very simple terms, there are just not enough excellent engineers, pilots, doctors, dentists, police chiefs and judges in the 3rd World. That's an obvious objective fact that the quality and quantity of people who can run a power station or administrate a hospital food service are by orders of magnitude fewer per capita in Indonesia than they are in Holland. Cannibalism was common in Sumatra and Borneo and wife burning and even ceremonial murder of whole estates of slaves in Bali and Java up into the last century until they were finally put to an end by the Dutch colonists.
Greta wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:14 amThen again, there were the genocides and attempted genocides.

Funny thing, this "colonism". Go to a region, slaughter the locals, steal the resources, rape the women - and then teach them to be civilised ...
This is probably a weak point since the colonial administration almost certainly prevented far more bloody internecine wars under Pax Britannia and was quite easily arguably very significantly less corrupt and universal in its application of justice as well as in social values than the locals were.
Your 'arguments' are too easy to poke holes in. It wasn't very long ago that your 'civilised' Victorians were hanging adults and children publicly. Go back a little further and you have burning at the stake, the Inquisiton, hanging, drawing and quartering, horrific routine torture, beheading....Who colonised them and made them 'civilised'?
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Seleucus
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Re: In defense of colonism

Post by Seleucus »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:26 pmYour 'arguments' are too easy to poke holes in. It wasn't very long ago that your 'civilised' Victorians were hanging adults and children publicly. Go back a little further and you have burning at the stake, the Inquisiton, hanging, drawing and quartering, horrific routine torture, beheading....Who colonised them and made them 'civilised'?
Near Easterners and Mediterraneans.
ken
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Re: In defense of colonism

Post by ken »

Seleucus wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:30 pm
Skip wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:04 pmColonism. Yes, indeed. Or at least anatomically close.

I spelt it that way since that's how Frantz Fanon often spelt it.

What's quite obvious is that 3rd World countries can't manage the developing societies colonism left them. Colonization advanced many countries out of the literal stone age,
What was wrong with the stone age?

What would you do if a people's from another place/planet came and colonized your currently obvious very primitive western ways? Their colonization advancing all western countries out of the literally greedy, pollution-riddled, war-torn ways that you live now?

How would you feel and what would you do if to make this advancement they had to burn your buildings down, kill your people, and take some as hostages to show/teach you what is the "right way"? What if you were one of the ones taken, not allowed to speak your language and live your ways, and also you are used as a slave to build up their empire? Would you just accept that and go with it, or would you somewhat resist?
Seleucus wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:30 pmor perhaps monarchical feudalism in a couple centuries but the psychology and cognitive structures to support a modern society take thousands of years to form. The people of 3rd World countries don't deserve the countries they have now ruined.
Have you even considered it is western ways that has caused those countries to become a so called 3rd world? You do realize that because of currently held human learned ways not every country and every person can be on an equal level. By definition there can not be empires and colonization without the less fortunate. With the love of obtaining more money being the biggest desire over any thing else, which is more or less what "western" ways is all about, then there can never be a level playing field, and so 2nd and 3rd world countries will have to exist. You can not have servants, slaves, and laborers to the rich and wealthy without the downtrodden and ridiculed. "Colonizing" others is one way of obtaining slaves.

Seleucus wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:30 pm I agree with Gilley and have thought so for some time that at minimum police and judiciaries need to be turned over to impartial foreign judges and trainers.
By definition a "foreign" person can only have a partial view and perspective. A "foreign" person by definition does NOT know ALL of the customs and cultures of a non-foreign person, and so they can NOT be impartial. A foreign "judge" and "trainer" also is totally biased, especially when seeing that person as a foreigner or other, and thus would only be imparting their own customs and cultures, which are obviously already a truly distorted perspective of the real and true proper view. The way you live for example, in a " western world" where killing human beings over pieces of paper with numbers written on them, or killing human beings because of skin color, or because they are "different", or are not liked is so foreign to Me that if I did not understand human beings completely and why they are the way they are, then I would never be able to understand them. The age human beings are living in at present is an age, in My eye, relatively terms way before any so called stone age. Human beings in so many ways are far more backwards now then they have ever been, and to think that they themselves know what the right thing is absolutely ludicrous at best, especially when there are human beings who think they can judge and talk the way that you are doing right here and now.

Your views of how the world should be is the very proof needed in order to know NOT what to follow.
Seleucus wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:30 pm Another point is his probably correct about is the damaging effect of disidentification against the West since it leaves no model of emulation, historically it seems to be imitation of higher prestige cultures that brings social transformation.


There is NO "west", so there is NO thing to identify. But I agree that some people perceive there is a "west". Explain to Me what west actually IS, so you can prove Me wrong in regards to there being NO west. If others accept and agree with your definition, then I will have to admit that I am wrong here.

If some people believe that others should imitate the so called perceived idea of the "west", then so help all people.

Social transformation, of your description, is NOT needed, (social transformation happens naturally anyway). Money is NOT needed. Religion is NOT needed. Colonization is NOT needed. ALL of the other so called "western higher prestige culture" is NOT needed at all also. In fact it IS because of the view that there is some sort of "higher prestige culture", with ALL of its distorted thinking like "We need money to live", "My religion is better than your religion", "We found/discovered this place", and any other absolutely stupid thinking of "western" society and views IS what causes ALL of the ills of the world. The earth was a much better place before the take over of other human beings places took place, or "colonization" as you might like to put it. To make the world a much healthier and better place to live will be done when human beings, like yourself, STOP thinking and believing that you are better than any other human being. The only difference between you and any other human being is that you are different. You are NOT better, though.

Seleucus wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:30 pm de Maistre may be right, the reason societies don't develop on to civilization and on to the stars is because of bad habits, failed forms of social organization.


The very things you are talking about is NOT civilization at all. What you are talking about is greed, take over, judgement, and ridicule. The only star you are heading towards with this way of thinking is a slow, painful death star.

The reason the whole world has not developed and moved onto real civilization is because of the bad habits and deformations created by the social organization that you are supporting.
Seleucus wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:30 pm Civilization develops out of the jungle naturally unless in someway becoming deformed. 3rd World societies are those societies which have defective social habits and failed to develop into advanced civilizations.


Have you ever seen the amount of homeless, drunk, drug addicted, gambling, poor, hungry, mentally unhealthy, angry, and depressed people there actually are in the so called "western advanced civilizations? The word "western" is incorrect but the word "civilization" is so far from the truth that this has become ludicrously laughable. The only deformation that has occurred is the one that has been caused by greed, power, and take overs.
Seleucus wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:30 pm So, Gilley's projections about the number of centuries it will take Bangladesh, for example, to reach an advanced stage of development are probably just wrong since it will simply just never happen due to the defectiveness of the building materials so to speak. Either way, a very fascinating article.
When a so called "leader" of a so called "civilized country" comes to power, and then threatens to wipe another country off the map, then that is when defectiveness has shown its real face and has come to the forefront.

The article may well be fascinating, I did not read it, but your projection of it is truly fascinating in of itself. I have always found the blindness shown by people's beliefs, such as yours, to be very intriguing. Thanks for your amusing and laughable insights.
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Re: In defense of colonism

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ken wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:42 pmWould you just accept that and go with it, or would you somewhat resist?
I would ally with them and find my descendants the educated and affluent class of the country today, as is what happened.
Have you even considered it is western ways that has caused those countries to become a so called 3rd world?
Of course it was what my liberal professors taught me growing up, but many long years in the 3rd World have dispelled the lie.
By definition a "foreign" person can only have a partial view and perspective. A "foreign" person by definition does NOT know ALL of the customs and cultures of a non-foreign person, and so they can NOT be impartial. A foreign "judge" and "trainer" also is totally biased....
If you have another better solution to the endemic lodged ogre of 3rd World corruption go ahead and propose it....
There is NO "west", so there is NO thing to identify. But I agree that some people perceive there is a "west". Explain to Me what west actually IS, so you can prove Me wrong in regards to there being NO west. If others accept and agree with your definition, then I will have to admit that I am wrong here.
The West is basically the tradition beginning from the overthrow of the Greek kings after the Dark Age and drawing on the much more ancient Indo-European culture before it, the migration of Near Eastern agriculturalists before that, and ultimately based on Neanderthal culture. It is essentially the White race, the non-Semitic branch of the Caucasian family, and all those who have embraced it regardless of locale or color.
The only difference between you and any other human being is that you are different. You are NOT better, though.
I guess if dying of malaria, being imprisoned without just trial, drinking water polluted with sh1t, in rubbish lined streets, and believing in sea gods and other such nonsense is superior to health care systems, justice systems, water systems, sanitation systems and education systems, then yes, the West is equal to the 3rd world.
Have you ever seen the amount of homeless, drunk, drug addicted, gambling, poor, hungry, mentally unhealthy, angry, and depressed people there actually are in the so called "western advanced civilizations? The word "western" is incorrect but the word "civilization" is so far from the truth that this has become ludicrously laughable. The only deformation that has occurred is the one that has been caused by greed, power, and take overs.
I'd take an apartment in Vancouver or Sydney over one in Jakarta of HCM, as would almost everyone, hence the reason for the overwhelming flow of residence applications in the direction that they are going.

I agree the West isn't perfect, but it is the best. You can thank the West for those values of being able to critique and purse progress you are engaged in.
I did not read it,
Oh, really?
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Re: In defense of colonism

Post by ken »

Seleucus wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:26 pm
ken wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:42 pmWould you just accept that and go with it, or would you somewhat resist?
I would ally with them and find my descendants the educated and affluent class of the country today, as is what happened.
Have you even considered it is western ways that has caused those countries to become a so called 3rd world?
Of course it was what my liberal professors taught me growing up, but many long years in the 3rd World have dispelled the nonsense.
By definition a "foreign" person can only have a partial view and perspective. A "foreign" person by definition does NOT know ALL of the customs and cultures of a non-foreign person, and so they can NOT be impartial. A foreign "judge" and "trainer" also is totally biased....
If you have another better solution to the endemic lodged ogre of 3rd World corruption go ahead and propose it....
There is NO "west", so there is NO thing to identify. But I agree that some people perceive there is a "west". Explain to Me what west actually IS, so you can prove Me wrong in regards to there being NO west. If others accept and agree with your definition, then I will have to admit that I am wrong here.
The West is basically the tradition beginning from the overthrow of the Greek kings after the Dark Age and drawing on the much more ancient Indo-European culture before it, the migration of Near Eastern agriculturalists before that, and ultimately based on Neanderthal culture. It is essentially the White race, the non-Semitic branch of the Caucasian family, and all those who have embraced it regardless of locale or color.
The only difference between you and any other human being is that you are different. You are NOT better, though.
I guess if dying of malaria, being imprisoned without just trial, drinking water polluted with sh1t, in rubbish lined streets, and believing in sea gods and other such nonsense is superior to health care systems, justice systems, water systems, sanitation systems and education systems, then yes, the West is equal to the 3rd world.
Have you ever seen the amount of homeless, drunk, drug addicted, gambling, poor, hungry, mentally unhealthy, angry, and depressed people there actually are in the so called "western advanced civilizations? The word "western" is incorrect but the word "civilization" is so far from the truth that this has become ludicrously laughable. The only deformation that has occurred is the one that has been caused by greed, power, and take overs.
I'd take an apartment in Vancouver or Sydney over one in Jakarta of HCM, as would almost everyone, hence the reason for the overwhelming flow of residence applications in the direction that they are going.

I agree the West isn't perfect, but it is the best. You can thank the West for those values of being able to critique and progress.
I did not read it,
Oh, really?
Your biased views and beliefs are more distorted than even I realized.

From your very first sentence in this reply to the end shows and proves this.

Since you only asked one clarifying question, I will answer now with a "Yes".

As for the solution to what you call 3rd world corruption, then that is easily solved. Find the cause, then you have the solution. What caused the corruption in the first place was the introduction of greed by your so called "western higher privileged society" into other countries. Therefore, remove greed from society, then there is no more corruption. Very simple really.

Also, I would like to add WHY you did not mention the corruption in what you call the 1st world is obvious. You are so blinded by your own distorted thinking and beliefs that you do not even see it.

And, we will have to wait and see just how many people accept and agree with your definition of 'west'. To Me it seems like a very long-winded effort to somewhat try and justify your own already held belief.

By the way most might take an apartment in those countries over other countries, at the moment, but i would certainly take a thatched hut in a completely pollution-free and truly peaceful, loving and harmonious world, any day, over the world that we are living in right now. The world we have now is "thankfully" due to what you call the "west".
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Seleucus
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Re: In defense of colonism

Post by Seleucus »

ken wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:56 pmYour...

From your....

Since you...

...what you call... by your so called...

WHY you did not... You are so blinded by your own distorted... you do not...

...agree with your... justify your own...
What does it mean, "projection"?
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: In defense of colonism

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

Seleucus wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2017 2:28 pm Bruce Gilley's "The case for colonialism" rocked the intellectual world this last couple weeks. Should be easy enough to find the article online, here is the abstract,

"For the last 100 years, Western colonialism has had a bad name. It is
high time to question this orthodoxy. Western colonialism was, as a
general rule, both objectively beneficial and subjectively legitimate in
most of the places where it was found, using realistic measures of those
concepts. The countries that embraced their colonial inheritance, by
and large, did better than those that spurned it. Anti-colonial ideology
imposed grave harms on subject peoples and continues to thwart
sustained development and a fruitful encounter with modernity in
many places. Colonialism can be recovered by weak and fragile states
today in three ways: by reclaiming colonial modes of governance;
by recolonising some areas; and by creating new Western colonies
from scratch."

In light of the resurgence of Western pride we are living through today, this is an essential read. Self-hating, White-guilt trippers, eat your bleeding hearts out =) It's a veritable cause for celebration that these obvious truths to anyone who has spent significant amounts of time in the Third-World can finally be spoken frankly.
Brain dead wanker.
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Re: In defense of colonism

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

Seleucus wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2017 2:28 pm Bruce Gilley's "The case for colonialism" rocked the intellectual world this last couple weeks.

Rocked the World??
More like got laughed the fuck out of court.
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Re: In defense of colonism

Post by Seleucus »

Hobbes' Choice wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:07 pmBrain dead wanker.
Sophisticated and also so deep.
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