Your call. What do you do?

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Walker
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Re: Your call. What do you do?

Post by Walker »

Greta wrote:We are like little animals that may need to scurry for shelter when fights between groups of large animals create chaos in the jungle.
Pretend that you are not like that, and that it is your call. The buck stops with you. You are the final authority, which is what Truman was. When it comes down to the nitty-gritty that’s what any POTUS is, like it or not. What’s the plan? Wait and blame, like those of post-911 wisdom?
Belinda
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Re: Your call. What do you do?

Post by Belinda »

Walker wrote: Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:51 am
Greta wrote:We are like little animals that may need to scurry for shelter when fights between groups of large animals create chaos in the jungle.
Pretend that you are not like that, and that it is your call. The buck stops with you. You are the final authority, which is what Truman was. When it comes down to the nitty-gritty that’s what any POTUS is, like it or not. What’s the plan? Wait and blame, like those of post-911 wisdom?
True .That is what democracy begins with . However there are forces of wealth and power that act upon our ruling elites which don't apply to us. Those forces can be overcome either by the ruling elites overcoming them by liberality and diplomacy acting with democracy, or else the common people make revolution.

It's interesting that the poor people of the USA have not made a bloody revolution like Russia had. Why is this? Is it because the ruling elite changes personel often enough--every four years is it? Or is it because America is a sort of police state? After all, as Walker has said, when Trump goes the former coal miners will elect someone similar.
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Greta
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Re: Your call. What do you do?

Post by Greta »

Walker wrote: Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:51 am
Greta wrote:We are like little animals that may need to scurry for shelter when fights between groups of large animals create chaos in the jungle.
Pretend that you are not like that, and that it is your call. The buck stops with you. You are the final authority, which is what Truman was. When it comes down to the nitty-gritty that’s what any POTUS is, like it or not. What’s the plan? Wait and blame, like those of post-911 wisdom?
I'd be inclined to ignore NK completely and go all out to bring the Anglosphere, Chindia and the EU together to create a global cooperative focused on creating ultra cheap and efficient sustainable energy. An added strategic bonus, aside from improving global goodwill (and thus support), reducing reliance on fossil fuels would harm the income streams of states that sponsor terrorism.

I'd also work on global cooperatives to alleviate the problems with women's and girls' rights and education in certain cultures with the aim of reducing the world's birth rates.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Your call. What do you do?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Greta wrote: Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:16 pm
Walker wrote: Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:51 am
Greta wrote:We are like little animals that may need to scurry for shelter when fights between groups of large animals create chaos in the jungle.
Pretend that you are not like that, and that it is your call. The buck stops with you. You are the final authority, which is what Truman was. When it comes down to the nitty-gritty that’s what any POTUS is, like it or not. What’s the plan? Wait and blame, like those of post-911 wisdom?
I'd be inclined to ignore NK completely and go all out to bring the Anglosphere, Chindia and the EU together to create a global cooperative focused on creating ultra cheap and efficient sustainable energy. An added strategic bonus, aside from improving global goodwill (and thus support), reducing reliance on fossil fuels would harm the income streams of states that sponsor terrorism.

I'd also work on global cooperatives to alleviate the problems with women's and girls' rights and education in certain cultures with the aim of reducing the world's birth rates.
It's much more fun to blow people up (and profitable) and it keeps the drones happy.
Walker
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Re: Your call. What do you do?

Post by Walker »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:06 pm
Greta wrote: Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:16 pm
Walker wrote: Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:51 am Pretend that you are not like that, and that it is your call. The buck stops with you. You are the final authority, which is what Truman was. When it comes down to the nitty-gritty that’s what any POTUS is, like it or not. What’s the plan? Wait and blame, like those of post-911 wisdom?
I'd be inclined to ignore NK completely and go all out to bring the Anglosphere, Chindia and the EU together to create a global cooperative focused on creating ultra cheap and efficient sustainable energy. An added strategic bonus, aside from improving global goodwill (and thus support), reducing reliance on fossil fuels would harm the income streams of states that sponsor terrorism.

I'd also work on global cooperatives to alleviate the problems with women's and girls' rights and education in certain cultures with the aim of reducing the world's birth rates.
It's much more fun to blow people up (and profitable) and it keeps the drones happy.
Wait and see is a big gamble with nukes, perhaps even a criminal abdication of responsibility and oath to risk so much.
Philosophy Explorer
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Re: Your call. What do you do?

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:06 pm
Greta wrote: Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:16 pm
Walker wrote: Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:51 am Pretend that you are not like that, and that it is your call. The buck stops with you. You are the final authority, which is what Truman was. When it comes down to the nitty-gritty that’s what any POTUS is, like it or not. What’s the plan? Wait and blame, like those of post-911 wisdom?
I'd be inclined to ignore NK completely and go all out to bring the Anglosphere, Chindia and the EU together to create a global cooperative focused on creating ultra cheap and efficient sustainable energy. An added strategic bonus, aside from improving global goodwill (and thus support), reducing reliance on fossil fuels would harm the income streams of states that sponsor terrorism.

I'd also work on global cooperatives to alleviate the problems with women's and girls' rights and education in certain cultures with the aim of reducing the world's birth rates.
It's much more fun to blow people up (and profitable) and it keeps the drones happy.
Explains why you like your blowup dollies, the ones missing their limbs. :lol:

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Greta
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Re: Your call. What do you do?

Post by Greta »

Walker wrote: Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:22 pm
Greta wrote: Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:16 pm
I'd be inclined to ignore NK completely and go all out to bring the Anglosphere, Chindia and the EU together to create a global cooperative focused on creating ultra cheap and efficient sustainable energy. An added strategic bonus, aside from improving global goodwill (and thus support), reducing reliance on fossil fuels would harm the income streams of states that sponsor terrorism.

I'd also work on global cooperatives to alleviate the problems with women's and girls' rights and education in certain cultures with the aim of reducing the world's birth rates.
Wait and see is a big gamble with nukes, perhaps even a criminal abdication of responsibility and oath to risk so much.
Actually, I would have started the sustainable energy drive immediately after 11/9 which would starved Al Qaeda of funds and the entire middle eastern problem would have been alleviated hugely. The only problem is that Congress and the public would demand direct (self defeating) violent revenge.

Further, if the US lost interest in NK and focused on negotiations with China then that would slow down NK's nuclear programs and rhetoric and the shifted focus from the military to doing business through superior harnessing of solar would reduce all tensions (aside from oil and arms companies). I suspect that the US no longer has confidence in their capacity to innovate and lead the world in science due to the rapid advancement of easy Asian countries, and thus felt that any innovations they made in this potential but long-ignored goldmine would soon be surpassed (with China's ignoring of IP laws not helping).
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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: Your call. What do you do?

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck »

The main thing that people miss about North Korea's actual missile capabilities is that despite having ICBMs, it doesn't hold up to the standard of our defense capabilities. The Soviet Union had ICBMs by the 1960-80s, and even learned how to attach nuclear weapons to them within that timeline. Even back then, we were able to shoot them down with ease, in spite of russia being at an even more opportune geographical location than North Korea. Having missiles =/= being able to actually hit things with those missiles, even if the tech is technically all there to allow it. Added to that, they have to pass over two very large military bases in Guam and Pearl Harbour.

However, this isn't even a battle between the 80s soviet union to the united states - it's more like a battle against the 80s soviet union vs the 2017 United states. Except they have even less resources, influence, and ground troops over the rest of the developed world. I'm definitely curious how much uranium and other essential things for nuclear fission they potentially have access to, but it's obviously not like they're some great exporter of the world. If china full-stops supplying them, I don't see them as having resources for nuclear fission for much longer. Course it would be bad if they decide to attack South Korea or Japan, I'm less confident about their defense capabilities. Although that would be a death sentence for the North.

I do think it will be very bad if a future leader of china comes along in the coming years that decides to support north korea more than their current president does. I think that's the real ticking time bomb.
Walker
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Re: Your call. What do you do?

Post by Walker »

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:32 pm The main thing that people miss about North Korea's actual missile capabilities is that despite having ICBMs ...
Resentment has been simmering in the dynasty for a good while, at least since Pork Chop Hill. Manchurian Candidate tactics have been used to condition the populace. Resentment has supplanted the citizenry as the reason to be, for N. Korea. It is the focus of attention. Dear Leader is propagandized as a deity like his daddy, who scored an 18 the first time he played golf, so they say. If you’re there you better believe it, literally.

The question is, how do we know they have nukes? And miniature nukes, no less. Do we have these miniature nukes? We trust what we are told, same as the North Korean citizens living in darkness, at least at night.

Therefore, government say-so cannot be the only metric for believing the official government word.

What are some others?
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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: Your call. What do you do?

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck »

Walker wrote: Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:57 am
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:32 pm The main thing that people miss about North Korea's actual missile capabilities is that despite having ICBMs ...
Resentment has been simmering in the dynasty for a good while, at least since Pork Chop Hill. Manchurian Candidate tactics have been used to condition the populace. Resentment has supplanted the citizenry as the reason to be, for N. Korea. It is the focus of attention. Dear Leader is propagandized as a deity like his daddy, who scored an 18 the first time he played golf, so they say. If you’re there you better believe it, literally.

The question is, how do we know they have nukes? And miniature nukes, no less. Do we have these miniature nukes? We trust what we are told, same as the North Korean citizens living in darkness, at least at night...
There's not any doubt they have nuclear weapons at this point, US intelligence have pretty much said it's confirmed. We're just unsure if it's atomic or hydrogen.

According to a leak, the the US can also confirm miniature nukes
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... 51e9bdbede
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Your call. What do you do?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:33 pm
Walker wrote: Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:57 am
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:32 pm The main thing that people miss about North Korea's actual missile capabilities is that despite having ICBMs ...
Resentment has been simmering in the dynasty for a good while, at least since Pork Chop Hill. Manchurian Candidate tactics have been used to condition the populace. Resentment has supplanted the citizenry as the reason to be, for N. Korea. It is the focus of attention. Dear Leader is propagandized as a deity like his daddy, who scored an 18 the first time he played golf, so they say. If you’re there you better believe it, literally.

The question is, how do we know they have nukes? And miniature nukes, no less. Do we have these miniature nukes? We trust what we are told, same as the North Korean citizens living in darkness, at least at night...
There's not any doubt they have nuclear weapons at this point, US intelligence have pretty much said it's confirmed. We're just unsure if it's atomic or hydrogen.

According to a leak, the the US can also confirm miniature nukes
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... 51e9bdbede
Like the 'WMD's in Iraq?
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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: Your call. What do you do?

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:59 pm
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:33 pm
Walker wrote: Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:57 am
Resentment has been simmering in the dynasty for a good while, at least since Pork Chop Hill. Manchurian Candidate tactics have been used to condition the populace. Resentment has supplanted the citizenry as the reason to be, for N. Korea. It is the focus of attention. Dear Leader is propagandized as a deity like his daddy, who scored an 18 the first time he played golf, so they say. If you’re there you better believe it, literally.

The question is, how do we know they have nukes? And miniature nukes, no less. Do we have these miniature nukes? We trust what we are told, same as the North Korean citizens living in darkness, at least at night...
There's not any doubt they have nuclear weapons at this point, US intelligence have pretty much said it's confirmed. We're just unsure if it's atomic or hydrogen.

According to a leak, the the US can also confirm miniature nukes
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... 51e9bdbede
Like the 'WMD's in Iraq?
Can't really say too much about how that and if it's relatable because I wasn't really into politics back when the iraq war started. Although wasn't the concern from the US that they 'could' have Nuclear Weapons based on their resources and not that they necessarily 'did'?
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Your call. What do you do?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:30 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:59 pm
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:33 pm
There's not any doubt they have nuclear weapons at this point, US intelligence have pretty much said it's confirmed. We're just unsure if it's atomic or hydrogen.

According to a leak, the the US can also confirm miniature nukes
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... 51e9bdbede
Like the 'WMD's in Iraq?
Can't really say too much about how that and if it's relatable because I wasn't really into politics back when the iraq war started. Although wasn't the concern from the US that they 'could' have Nuclear Weapons based on their resources and not that they necessarily 'did'?
Nothing like that. You'd have to look it up. Everyone knew it was a lie and an excuse to destroy another country. GB was just as complicit.
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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: Your call. What do you do?

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:43 am
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:30 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:59 pm

Like the 'WMD's in Iraq?
Can't really say too much about how that and if it's relatable because I wasn't really into politics back when the iraq war started. Although wasn't the concern from the US that they 'could' have Nuclear Weapons based on their resources and not that they necessarily 'did'?
Nothing like that. You'd have to look it up. Everyone knew it was a lie and an excuse to destroy another country. GB was just as complicit.
I know the gist and timeline of how it happened, but looking back on it years later and trying to delve into the nuance is difficult. Bush was interviewed in 2014 so that's where I was getting this idea from. He basically explained how he thought they only had the 'capacity' to have them. He could be lying here.

I'm sure this is a heated debate, but I'm having a hard time finding where the US thought Iraq explicitly had them, and weren't just seeking to make them.
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Re: Your call. What do you do?

Post by Gary Childress »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:43 am
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:30 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:59 pm

Like the 'WMD's in Iraq?
Can't really say too much about how that and if it's relatable because I wasn't really into politics back when the iraq war started. Although wasn't the concern from the US that they 'could' have Nuclear Weapons based on their resources and not that they necessarily 'did'?
Nothing like that. You'd have to look it up. Everyone knew it was a lie and an excuse to destroy another country. GB was just as complicit.
It certainly ended up destroying another country and fucking up the world. I sort of doubt the orchestrators of the invasion of Iraq sat down with the explicit intent of fucking up the world as badly as they did but they seem to have done just that. However, some credit also goes to the orchestrators of the 9/11 attack. I don't think they are exactly free of blame either. And Saddam Hussein was a pretty big ass himself. A lot of assholes seem to have come into congruence in 2003. Just my "two cents" I guess.
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