Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

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Skip
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by Skip »

Science Fan wrote: Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:28 pm On their TV series Bullshit!, Penn and Teller, two libertarian magicians, comedians, once discussed the topic of speech bans on college campuses.
I saw a clip of a very unfunny rant which didn't address anything except the loudmouth's idea of what might be banned.
You know, the usual strawman who is supposed be offended by your opinion.
But the lead-in wasn't about anybody actually trying to stop anybody from wearing belts or eating meat - it was about a university enforcing a basic standard of civility on its premises. (He's vague about what it entails.).
Now, it seems to me there is a difference between expressing a dissenting political or religious opinion in public - freedom of speech -
and verbally abusing other people - libel, slander, harassment, intimidation or just plain rudeness.
That a university wants to protect its students against harassment and unwelcome sexual advances, as well as racial, ethnic or religious slurs or persecution does not seem to me repressive.

The loudmouth - the fat one; I don't know which is which - says, "If you don't like foul language, go away from it." But if it's all over the college; cafeteria, quad, common rooms, dormitory - where are you supposed to go away to? You've paid the same fees as pottymouth, yet you're on the run all the time. Why should every student not be equally entitled to enjoy all of the facilities in peace? Whoever owns and runs the college has a responsibility to provide a safe and decent environment for everyone enrolled there - and that means setting some rules and limits on general demeanour.

The loudmouth is staging his rant in a pretend restaurant. In a real one, if he behaved like that, all the other patrons would have their dinner and their evening ruined; the owner would lose clients.
Do you really not see the difference between expressing ideas and accosting other people?

I couldn't find any interview with Chomsky.
Or any evidence that's he's ever expressed support for banning free speech.
Science Fan
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by Science Fan »

Let's analyze the claim that Chomsky did not endorse speech bans on college campuses. The claim is that he never said this and merely spoke out against students being harassed. As Penn & Telller would say, BULLSHIT! I watched the episode, and also read a transcript from the show, immediately before making this post. The real give-away that tells us that Chomsky supports banning free speech on college campuses is the pathetic excuse he uses for his endorsement of fascism. If he really was simply speaking out against students being assaulted, then why did Chomsky come up with the analogy that a college campus is a student's home? After all, it is illegal to assault someone whether they are in their own home or outside of their home in public. The reason why Chomsky came up with this analogy is because he was endorsing speech codes than ban free speech.

The claim that Chomsky was only against students being harassed is 100% nonsense. The speech codes that ban free speech on college campuses are allegedly "justified" by fictitious claims that students should not have to hear speech they don't like --- i.e., that shouldn't have to be "assaulted" or "harassed." If a student on a college campus tells another student that Islam endorses child rape because its alleged prophet's favorite wife was six when he married her, and a Muslim student overhears the statement and complains to the administration that another student was saying hateful things about Muslims, the student who would have simply told the truth about Islam faces discipline. This is censorship. Speech often hurts the feelings of others, but that has never been accepted under classical liberalism as a justification for silencing people. Now, according to people like Chomsky, it is sufficient, because a college campus is a "student's home."

Anyone who believes that speech should be banned on college campuses, based on these speech codes, is not someone who is interested in the truth, in civil liberty, and free speech. That's hardly an intellectual position. It is an attack against intellectual activity, which necessarily involves speech that will undoubtedly hurt someone's feelings.
Skip
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by Skip »

Science Fan wrote: Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:52 pm Let's analyze the claim that Chomsky did not endorse speech bans on college campuses. The claim is that he never said this and merely spoke out against students being harassed.
What "claim"? I merely asked for proof of your claim that he did.
Once you're supplied that, and I hear what he actually answered to what specific question, I'll be happy to discuss any matters arising.
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by Science Fan »

Anyone can watch that show for themselves and see that Chomsky is a supporter of college speech codes, which is why he claimed that a college campus is the same as a student's home. If you see the show differently, then I'm really not sure what you claim to be seeing. If Chomsky was against such codes he would have said so, rather than claim a college campus is a student's home, so speech can be banned on college campuses.
Skip
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by Skip »

Science Fan wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:45 pm Anyone can watch that show for themselves and see that Chomsky is a supporter of college speech codes, which is why he claimed that a college campus is the same as a student's home. If you see the show differently, then I'm really not sure what you claim to be seeing. If Chomsky was against such codes he would have said so, rather than claim a college campus is a student's home, so speech can be banned on college campuses.
As of right now, all I "claim to be seeing" are your statements and one imprecise reference to colleges in a vague rant about other stuff. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2h6v01FlU4 "Fuckin this, fuckin that," at the top of his lungs," no offense ma'm, if you're offended, get away from it." She's paying for a nice meal in a place meant for nice meals, not for street theater. The asshole is disrupting the environment she has the same right to enjoy as he does, and he's blatantly violating her right to do so. The management should have thrown him out.

Restaurants, schools, offices and factories have managements responsible for the welfare of all the people who eat, study and work in their premises; they have a right to establish rules of interaction, security and deportment, on whatever grounds they deem most suitable. Of course university administrations can limit freedom in ways the government can't. So can a clerical order or benevolent fraternity or health facility - it's not government; it's a separate institution. I can also make the rules on any property I own, or in any facility I manage.
If you're offended by them, go away from it. Establish your own school, with its own rules.
That's my opinion, btw, and nothing to do with Chomsky, whose opinion on this specific matter I have not heard.
If you don't like it, ignore it.
What do you claim to have seen?

Institutions, establishments and employers do not have a right to stop any of those residents, students or employees, on their own time, haranguing their political representative, writing letters to the editor, making speeches in a public square, putting on subversive plays in a theater, attending political rallies, displaying dirty pictures in an art gallery, or expressing their opinion on a radio or television program.
Of course, the newspaper, gallery, theater, radio and television network get to choose the content they publish/show/air/broadcast.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictiona ... +of+Speech
Here is a good summary of the legal position on free speech.

What do you mean by "public university"?
"Assholes in Residence
Attend at Own Risk"
?
Science Fan
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by Science Fan »

Skip, you seem to have a problem with reality. I watched the show, and I know for a fact Chomsky came out in favor of speech codes, which ban free speech on college campuses. Think what you want, I really don't give a damn. You support a man who denies free speech, and I don't.
Skip
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by Skip »

I did not see or hear Chomsky; I do not support any man, and of-bloody-course I think what I want.

If you have issues, make them plain, provide the links and be specific about what you wish to discuss.
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by marjoram_blues »

Skip wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:26 pm I did not see or hear Chomsky; I do not support any man, and of-bloody-course I think what I want.

If you have issues, make them plain, provide the links and be specific about what you wish to discuss.
I guess that was too much to ask for.
'Science Fan' appears to have left the building...
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

Science Fan wrote: Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:28 pm On their TV series Bullshit!, Penn and Teller, two libertarian magicians, comedians, once discussed the topic of speech bans on college campuses. The video can probably be watched for free on You Tube. On this specific topic of politically-correct speech codes that ban free-speech on college campuses, they interviewed Noam Chomsky. This is the same Noam Chomsky who signed a petition that specifically stated the Holocaust was a hoax, and Chomsky defended his action by claiming it was in support of freedom of speech. So, one would think that if Chomsky supports deniers' rights to free speech that he would also support free speech in general on college campuses, and be against politically correct speech codes. One would be wrong in thinking this. Chomsky specifically defended the speech bans on college campuses by claiming that the college campuses were a student's home and just as one can not speak freely in another person's home, one should not be allowed to speak freely on a college campus.

Chomsky's argument is entirely disingenuous. While a student may be able to ban free-speech within his own private dorm room, the larger college campus is not the student's home.

If free speech cannot be allowed on a college campus, then what will become of a college education? It seems to me that one of the most important places to preserve free speech is on a college campus. I realize that many people here have gone out of their way to hold up Chomsky as some intellectual beacon we should bow down to, but, the reality is that he's not admirable.

It's a real shame that Noam Chomsky is such a favorite of so many people. The fact he is in support of banning freedom of speech in favor of political correctness makes him an anti-intellectual in my opinion. Calling Noam Chomsky a public intellectual is a perfect example of an Emperor who has no clothes.
I do not think this thread is of any value if you simply mis-represent CHomsky. Either you are too stupid to understand the argument; have borrowed some right-wing propaganda; or are clever enough to try to misread him on your own recognisance. My guess if either the first or the second.

The fact that the mass extermination of Jews in WW2 is termed "The Holocaust" raises an event to a myth. So much is obvious, and you can say that without contradicting the simple facts.
That "The Holocaust" is used as a way to provide a carte-blanche to Israel to act like nazi monsters can also be said without contradicting the facts of the events of WW2.
The fact that the jews, along with several other groups were systematically exterminated is factual. That it amounts to a holocaust upon jews is an opinion. The fact that Jews tend to privilege the death of jews above that of homosexuals, the disabled and the mentally ill, as well as slavs, gypsies, is a matter of contention.
Can you say how it is that the death of 20 million Russians in WW2 is not turned into a fetish like the death of 6 million jews? Can you tell me why killing lesbians is not seen as important, as jews?

If you can't understand these simple observation then I suggest you go back to school.
Skip
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by Skip »

He can't go back to school - they have rules of civilized conduct there and he's a conspicuous objector.
Gary Childress
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by Gary Childress »

I tried to find the video of the interview between Penn and Teller and Noam Chomsky referred to in the OP but all I found was some sort of bizarre transcript that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

https://chomsky.info/20050530/

I googled "Chomsky, free speech and college" and found this audio interview on YouTube with professor Chomsky:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MkjtXylEQE

Chomsky seems to agree here that university students ought to be exposed to a variety of ideas and that he doesn't agree with heckling and shutting down talks. However, he seems to note that the only time the majority protest lack of free speech is when the talks being shut down are those of the status quo. He uses the example of how few protested when he (Chomsky) had to have police protection giving his talks about US politics in the Middle East several years ago. However, now, when those more or less opposed to the views which Chomsky professed on the Middle East are heckled, there seems to be profound outrage. Also note that Chomsky says he himself hasn't protested being heckled in his talks. And he didn't ask the police for escort, rather they apparently initiated it at someone else's request.
Skip
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by Skip »

I saw that last one. But it had nothing to do with rules against sexual harassment or racial slurs or any other offensive behaviour on campus.
Gary Childress
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by Gary Childress »

Skip wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:41 am I saw that last one. But it had nothing to do with rules against sexual harassment or racial slurs or any other offensive behaviour on campus.
Not sure I follow. Are you responding to my post? I thought the OP was about "free speech" on college campuses. That's why I offered the second link to clarify Chomsky's position on it.
Skip
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by Skip »

Gary Childress wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:16 am Not sure I follow. Are you responding to my post? I thought the OP was about "free speech" on college campuses. That's why I offered the second link to clarify Chomsky's position on it.
Yes, it was in response to your post, which was actually about free speech - that is, the expression of political opinion.
Bu the OP isn't about that. The Penn and/or Teller clip I saw is about some particular university setting a code of behaviour for students, that restricts offensive forms of address, endearments, etc. toward other students. He's not very clear on exactly what he's objecting to, because it's a way-over-the-top rant against what they term 'political correctness', including all the things he thinks some people might find offensive. Nothing to do with political opinion, or lectures, or the expression of ideas.
Science Fan -- The speech codes that ban free speech on college campuses are allegedly "justified" by fictitious claims that students should not have to hear speech they don't like --- i.e., that shouldn't have to be "assaulted" or "harassed."
Then he goes on to and "if" scenario, where somebody 'overhears' a factual statement and complains. But that's not really what happens, is it? The anti-Muslim jeer is made right in the girl's face, after ripping off her scarf. That's the kind of freedom SF and P&T are really defending.
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

So 'offensive' is an objective term then? Interesting. Ripping off someone's scarf is actually assault and covered by actual laws.
Which 'offensive' terms does this campus take exception to? 'Fatty'? 'Lard-bucket'? 'Bitch'? 'Ugly'? 'Big-nose'? 'Retard'? 'Meat-head'? 'Fatty four-eyes'? Probably not is my guess ('bitch' is a bit borderline because it would fall under the 'misogyny' protective umbrella.) They would be told to 'suck it up'(or in). Don't you think those people would be offended and hurt? But say 'muslim lard-bucket', or 'ugly retarded homo' and that's another matter entirely. I'm offended when someone leaves the 's' off 'towards', or follows 'off' with 'of'. I'm offended by PC hypocrisy. Shouldn't there be a blanket law that makes it illegal to cause offended feelings in any individual for any reason? As it stands, what is objectively offensive is subject to change, depending on whatever is deemed 'offensive' in the eyes of the PC and whichever protected group happens to be flavour of the month at any given time. It's hard work being offended on behalf of others.
Scenario: someone breaks into your home while you are in bed. You have a frenzied scuffle with them. In the heat of the moment you scream 'Get out of my house you black/asian/muslim/transgender/gay/....bastard!' Result: home invader goes free because of the trauma of having to deal with 'offensive slurs'. You are arrested for hate-speech, and sentenced to death.
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