Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

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Gary Childress
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by Gary Childress »

Wyman wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:27 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:10 pm What is there to "get"? Are the majority being "oppressed" by minorities now? Have you ever been a victim of "political correctness" going overboard? I know I haven't.
You have your head in the sand. Google 'college speech codes.' Here is one quick example I pulled:

Greg Lukianoff of the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE) gave hope to students tired of asking permission to speak out on campus at the eighth Student for Liberty Conference. Thanks to his organization, 36 colleges have abolished or severely scaled down their speech codes. But the fight is far from over.

“Over 55 percent of colleges we surveyed have speech codes that wouldn’t stand court challenges,” says Lukianoff. “These colleges include Jacksonville University, which forbade students to offend anyone, or this other college that had a rule against ‘inappropriately directed laughter.”

Since the “soft method” — trying to win the public opinion, exposing the absurdities of speech codes — wasn’t working, FIRE decided to drop the gloves and go to court to affirm First Amendment rights. And even when colleges are cornered with their nonsensical codes, they still act like victims.

“Our first case in Modesto, California, was beyond parody; some people even though we had created it,” recalls Lukianoff. “On Constitution Day a veteran wanted to hand copies of the Constitution on campus. He recorded his journey because he was convinced something that would go wrong, which it did. He was stopped by a campus officer who told him he had to fill out forms before he could exercise his free speech.”

“He went to the main office and the receptionist browsed through a fat binder,” he continued. “She said he could do his distribution somewhere in October. Campus officials kept acting like the victim until the veteran’s video got released.”

And it’s not even the worst case yet. “The University of Hawaii has the so-called free speech zone that’s limited to a tiny puddle of water away from student life. ‘This is not the 1960s’ claimed university officials. They seem to forget that all public colleges have to submit to the Constitution including the First Amendment.”

To find out if your college limits free speech to a yard-square area which you need to reserve two weeks in advance to use or if they basically forbid you to offend anyone, visit theFire.org.
Why should I care if someone wants "freedom of speech" in order to insult and offend the disadvantaged on a college campus? Is it really that important to ridicule people in wheel chairs or something, or call blacks the "n" word? Maybe we should teach Mein Kampf in public schools? I've heard that Hitler was actually a pretty good and persuasive writer. Might even be considered a classic of human civilization in some morbid ways. I mean it sounds almost like a quixotesque crusade to me. "OMG, we need to be able to offend people! The sky is falling! Next they'll be taking our first born from us." Seriously? Does offending others mean that much? Most of the people who seem to be complaining about PC appear to be the ones who just want to be assholes on campus. If they want to be assholes there are plenty of places off campus grounds to be so. It's not the end of the world. Humanity will surely survive. I think we can all calm down already. If some are that motivated to action and really want to stand for something worthwhile, then there are tons of worthy causes out there to pursue. Otherwise maybe they need to get a hobby or something to pass time.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:36 am
Wyman wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:27 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:10 pm What is there to "get"? Are the majority being "oppressed" by minorities now? Have you ever been a victim of "political correctness" going overboard? I know I haven't.
You have your head in the sand. Google 'college speech codes.' Here is one quick example I pulled:

Greg Lukianoff of the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE) gave hope to students tired of asking permission to speak out on campus at the eighth Student for Liberty Conference. Thanks to his organization, 36 colleges have abolished or severely scaled down their speech codes. But the fight is far from over.

“Over 55 percent of colleges we surveyed have speech codes that wouldn’t stand court challenges,” says Lukianoff. “These colleges include Jacksonville University, which forbade students to offend anyone, or this other college that had a rule against ‘inappropriately directed laughter.”

Since the “soft method” — trying to win the public opinion, exposing the absurdities of speech codes — wasn’t working, FIRE decided to drop the gloves and go to court to affirm First Amendment rights. And even when colleges are cornered with their nonsensical codes, they still act like victims.

“Our first case in Modesto, California, was beyond parody; some people even though we had created it,” recalls Lukianoff. “On Constitution Day a veteran wanted to hand copies of the Constitution on campus. He recorded his journey because he was convinced something that would go wrong, which it did. He was stopped by a campus officer who told him he had to fill out forms before he could exercise his free speech.”

“He went to the main office and the receptionist browsed through a fat binder,” he continued. “She said he could do his distribution somewhere in October. Campus officials kept acting like the victim until the veteran’s video got released.”

And it’s not even the worst case yet. “The University of Hawaii has the so-called free speech zone that’s limited to a tiny puddle of water away from student life. ‘This is not the 1960s’ claimed university officials. They seem to forget that all public colleges have to submit to the Constitution including the First Amendment.”

To find out if your college limits free speech to a yard-square area which you need to reserve two weeks in advance to use or if they basically forbid you to offend anyone, visit theFire.org.
Why should I care if someone wants "freedom of speech" in order to insult and offend the disadvantaged on a college campus? Is it really that important to ridicule people in wheel chairs or something, or call blacks the "n" word? Maybe we should teach Mein Kampf in public schools? I've heard that Hitler was actually a pretty good and persuasive writer. Might even be considered a classic of human civilization in some morbid ways. I mean it sounds almost like a quixotesque crusade to me. "OMG, we need to be able to offend people! The sky is falling! Next they'll be taking our first born from us." Seriously? Does offending others mean that much? Most of the people who seem to be complaining about PC appear to be the ones who just want to be assholes on campus. If they want to be assholes there are plenty of places off campus grounds to be so. It's not the end of the world. Humanity will surely survive. I think we can all calm down already. If some are that motivated to action and really want to stand for something worthwhile, then there are tons of worthy causes out there to pursue. Otherwise maybe they need to get a hobby or something to pass time.
You really are quite unbelievably thick.
Melchior
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by Melchior »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:36 am
Wyman wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:27 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:10 pm What is there to "get"? Are the majority being "oppressed" by minorities now? Have you ever been a victim of "political correctness" going overboard? I know I haven't.
You have your head in the sand. Google 'college speech codes.' Here is one quick example I pulled:

Greg Lukianoff of the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE) gave hope to students tired of asking permission to speak out on campus at the eighth Student for Liberty Conference. Thanks to his organization, 36 colleges have abolished or severely scaled down their speech codes. But the fight is far from over.

“Over 55 percent of colleges we surveyed have speech codes that wouldn’t stand court challenges,” says Lukianoff. “These colleges include Jacksonville University, which forbade students to offend anyone, or this other college that had a rule against ‘inappropriately directed laughter.”

Since the “soft method” — trying to win the public opinion, exposing the absurdities of speech codes — wasn’t working, FIRE decided to drop the gloves and go to court to affirm First Amendment rights. And even when colleges are cornered with their nonsensical codes, they still act like victims.

“Our first case in Modesto, California, was beyond parody; some people even though we had created it,” recalls Lukianoff. “On Constitution Day a veteran wanted to hand copies of the Constitution on campus. He recorded his journey because he was convinced something that would go wrong, which it did. He was stopped by a campus officer who told him he had to fill out forms before he could exercise his free speech.”

“He went to the main office and the receptionist browsed through a fat binder,” he continued. “She said he could do his distribution somewhere in October. Campus officials kept acting like the victim until the veteran’s video got released.”

And it’s not even the worst case yet. “The University of Hawaii has the so-called free speech zone that’s limited to a tiny puddle of water away from student life. ‘This is not the 1960s’ claimed university officials. They seem to forget that all public colleges have to submit to the Constitution including the First Amendment.”

To find out if your college limits free speech to a yard-square area which you need to reserve two weeks in advance to use or if they basically forbid you to offend anyone, visit theFire.org.
Why should I care if someone wants "freedom of speech" in order to insult and offend the disadvantaged on a college campus? Is it really that important to ridicule people in wheel chairs or something, or call blacks the "n" word? Maybe we should teach Mein Kampf in public schools? I've heard that Hitler was actually a pretty good and persuasive writer. Might even be considered a classic of human civilization in some morbid ways. I mean it sounds almost like a quixotesque crusade to me. "OMG, we need to be able to offend people! The sky is falling! Next they'll be taking our first born from us." Seriously? Does offending others mean that much? Most of the people who seem to be complaining about PC appear to be the ones who just want to be assholes on campus. If they want to be assholes there are plenty of places off campus grounds to be so. It's not the end of the world. Humanity will surely survive. I think we can all calm down already. If some are that motivated to action and really want to stand for something worthwhile, then there are tons of worthy causes out there to pursue. Otherwise maybe they need to get a hobby or something to pass time.
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by Gary Childress »

Melchior wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:09 am
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:36 am
Wyman wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:27 pm

You have your head in the sand. Google 'college speech codes.' Here is one quick example I pulled:

Greg Lukianoff of the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE) gave hope to students tired of asking permission to speak out on campus at the eighth Student for Liberty Conference. Thanks to his organization, 36 colleges have abolished or severely scaled down their speech codes. But the fight is far from over.

“Over 55 percent of colleges we surveyed have speech codes that wouldn’t stand court challenges,” says Lukianoff. “These colleges include Jacksonville University, which forbade students to offend anyone, or this other college that had a rule against ‘inappropriately directed laughter.”

Since the “soft method” — trying to win the public opinion, exposing the absurdities of speech codes — wasn’t working, FIRE decided to drop the gloves and go to court to affirm First Amendment rights. And even when colleges are cornered with their nonsensical codes, they still act like victims.

“Our first case in Modesto, California, was beyond parody; some people even though we had created it,” recalls Lukianoff. “On Constitution Day a veteran wanted to hand copies of the Constitution on campus. He recorded his journey because he was convinced something that would go wrong, which it did. He was stopped by a campus officer who told him he had to fill out forms before he could exercise his free speech.”

“He went to the main office and the receptionist browsed through a fat binder,” he continued. “She said he could do his distribution somewhere in October. Campus officials kept acting like the victim until the veteran’s video got released.”

And it’s not even the worst case yet. “The University of Hawaii has the so-called free speech zone that’s limited to a tiny puddle of water away from student life. ‘This is not the 1960s’ claimed university officials. They seem to forget that all public colleges have to submit to the Constitution including the First Amendment.”

To find out if your college limits free speech to a yard-square area which you need to reserve two weeks in advance to use or if they basically forbid you to offend anyone, visit theFire.org.
Why should I care if someone wants "freedom of speech" in order to insult and offend the disadvantaged on a college campus? Is it really that important to ridicule people in wheel chairs or something, or call blacks the "n" word? Maybe we should teach Mein Kampf in public schools? I've heard that Hitler was actually a pretty good and persuasive writer. Might even be considered a classic of human civilization in some morbid ways. I mean it sounds almost like a quixotesque crusade to me. "OMG, we need to be able to offend people! The sky is falling! Next they'll be taking our first born from us." Seriously? Does offending others mean that much? Most of the people who seem to be complaining about PC appear to be the ones who just want to be assholes on campus. If they want to be assholes there are plenty of places off campus grounds to be so. It's not the end of the world. Humanity will surely survive. I think we can all calm down already. If some are that motivated to action and really want to stand for something worthwhile, then there are tons of worthy causes out there to pursue. Otherwise maybe they need to get a hobby or something to pass time.
Why are you here?
Because I feel like being here.
Gary Childress
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by Gary Childress »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:45 am
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:36 am
Wyman wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:27 pm

You have your head in the sand. Google 'college speech codes.' Here is one quick example I pulled:

Greg Lukianoff of the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE) gave hope to students tired of asking permission to speak out on campus at the eighth Student for Liberty Conference. Thanks to his organization, 36 colleges have abolished or severely scaled down their speech codes. But the fight is far from over.

“Over 55 percent of colleges we surveyed have speech codes that wouldn’t stand court challenges,” says Lukianoff. “These colleges include Jacksonville University, which forbade students to offend anyone, or this other college that had a rule against ‘inappropriately directed laughter.”

Since the “soft method” — trying to win the public opinion, exposing the absurdities of speech codes — wasn’t working, FIRE decided to drop the gloves and go to court to affirm First Amendment rights. And even when colleges are cornered with their nonsensical codes, they still act like victims.

“Our first case in Modesto, California, was beyond parody; some people even though we had created it,” recalls Lukianoff. “On Constitution Day a veteran wanted to hand copies of the Constitution on campus. He recorded his journey because he was convinced something that would go wrong, which it did. He was stopped by a campus officer who told him he had to fill out forms before he could exercise his free speech.”

“He went to the main office and the receptionist browsed through a fat binder,” he continued. “She said he could do his distribution somewhere in October. Campus officials kept acting like the victim until the veteran’s video got released.”

And it’s not even the worst case yet. “The University of Hawaii has the so-called free speech zone that’s limited to a tiny puddle of water away from student life. ‘This is not the 1960s’ claimed university officials. They seem to forget that all public colleges have to submit to the Constitution including the First Amendment.”

To find out if your college limits free speech to a yard-square area which you need to reserve two weeks in advance to use or if they basically forbid you to offend anyone, visit theFire.org.
Why should I care if someone wants "freedom of speech" in order to insult and offend the disadvantaged on a college campus? Is it really that important to ridicule people in wheel chairs or something, or call blacks the "n" word? Maybe we should teach Mein Kampf in public schools? I've heard that Hitler was actually a pretty good and persuasive writer. Might even be considered a classic of human civilization in some morbid ways. I mean it sounds almost like a quixotesque crusade to me. "OMG, we need to be able to offend people! The sky is falling! Next they'll be taking our first born from us." Seriously? Does offending others mean that much? Most of the people who seem to be complaining about PC appear to be the ones who just want to be assholes on campus. If they want to be assholes there are plenty of places off campus grounds to be so. It's not the end of the world. Humanity will surely survive. I think we can all calm down already. If some are that motivated to action and really want to stand for something worthwhile, then there are tons of worthy causes out there to pursue. Otherwise maybe they need to get a hobby or something to pass time.
You really are quite unbelievably thick.
Not really.
Wyman
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by Wyman »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:36 am
Wyman wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:27 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:10 pm What is there to "get"? Are the majority being "oppressed" by minorities now? Have you ever been a victim of "political correctness" going overboard? I know I haven't.
You have your head in the sand. Google 'college speech codes.' Here is one quick example I pulled:

Greg Lukianoff of the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE) gave hope to students tired of asking permission to speak out on campus at the eighth Student for Liberty Conference. Thanks to his organization, 36 colleges have abolished or severely scaled down their speech codes. But the fight is far from over.

“Over 55 percent of colleges we surveyed have speech codes that wouldn’t stand court challenges,” says Lukianoff. “These colleges include Jacksonville University, which forbade students to offend anyone, or this other college that had a rule against ‘inappropriately directed laughter.”

Since the “soft method” — trying to win the public opinion, exposing the absurdities of speech codes — wasn’t working, FIRE decided to drop the gloves and go to court to affirm First Amendment rights. And even when colleges are cornered with their nonsensical codes, they still act like victims.

“Our first case in Modesto, California, was beyond parody; some people even though we had created it,” recalls Lukianoff. “On Constitution Day a veteran wanted to hand copies of the Constitution on campus. He recorded his journey because he was convinced something that would go wrong, which it did. He was stopped by a campus officer who told him he had to fill out forms before he could exercise his free speech.”

“He went to the main office and the receptionist browsed through a fat binder,” he continued. “She said he could do his distribution somewhere in October. Campus officials kept acting like the victim until the veteran’s video got released.”

And it’s not even the worst case yet. “The University of Hawaii has the so-called free speech zone that’s limited to a tiny puddle of water away from student life. ‘This is not the 1960s’ claimed university officials. They seem to forget that all public colleges have to submit to the Constitution including the First Amendment.”

To find out if your college limits free speech to a yard-square area which you need to reserve two weeks in advance to use or if they basically forbid you to offend anyone, visit theFire.org.
Why should I care if someone wants "freedom of speech" in order to insult and offend the disadvantaged on a college campus? Is it really that important to ridicule people in wheel chairs or something, or call blacks the "n" word? Maybe we should teach Mein Kampf in public schools? I've heard that Hitler was actually a pretty good and persuasive writer. Might even be considered a classic of human civilization in some morbid ways. I mean it sounds almost like a quixotesque crusade to me. "OMG, we need to be able to offend people! The sky is falling! Next they'll be taking our first born from us." Seriously? Does offending others mean that much? Most of the people who seem to be complaining about PC appear to be the ones who just want to be assholes on campus. If they want to be assholes there are plenty of places off campus grounds to be so. It's not the end of the world. Humanity will surely survive. I think we can all calm down already. If some are that motivated to action and really want to stand for something worthwhile, then there are tons of worthy causes out there to pursue. Otherwise maybe they need to get a hobby or something to pass time.
I don't think you're thick. I just think the speech codes have gone way overboard. And the trigger warnings and the sexual assault codes. And I do think that radicals (who may offend) ought to be able to speak on campus and the remedy should not be expulsion but dialogue.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

I call it 'thick' when someone keeps asking me the same thing over and over again when I've already answered it umpteen times!
Melchior
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by Melchior »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:52 am
Melchior wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:09 am
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:36 am

Why should I care if someone wants "freedom of speech" in order to insult and offend the disadvantaged on a college campus? Is it really that important to ridicule people in wheel chairs or something, or call blacks the "n" word? Maybe we should teach Mein Kampf in public schools? I've heard that Hitler was actually a pretty good and persuasive writer. Might even be considered a classic of human civilization in some morbid ways. I mean it sounds almost like a quixotesque crusade to me. "OMG, we need to be able to offend people! The sky is falling! Next they'll be taking our first born from us." Seriously? Does offending others mean that much? Most of the people who seem to be complaining about PC appear to be the ones who just want to be assholes on campus. If they want to be assholes there are plenty of places off campus grounds to be so. It's not the end of the world. Humanity will surely survive. I think we can all calm down already. If some are that motivated to action and really want to stand for something worthwhile, then there are tons of worthy causes out there to pursue. Otherwise maybe they need to get a hobby or something to pass time.
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Skip
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by Skip »

I guess Americans resort to litigation because they can't manage moderation. Better than armed conflict, I suppose.
In the end, things change, nonetheless.
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by Gary Childress »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:27 pm I call it 'thick' when someone keeps asking me the same thing over and over again when I've already answered it umpteen times!
What have I asked you over and over again?
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by Gary Childress »

Wyman wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:26 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:36 am
Wyman wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:27 pm

You have your head in the sand. Google 'college speech codes.' Here is one quick example I pulled:

Greg Lukianoff of the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE) gave hope to students tired of asking permission to speak out on campus at the eighth Student for Liberty Conference. Thanks to his organization, 36 colleges have abolished or severely scaled down their speech codes. But the fight is far from over.

“Over 55 percent of colleges we surveyed have speech codes that wouldn’t stand court challenges,” says Lukianoff. “These colleges include Jacksonville University, which forbade students to offend anyone, or this other college that had a rule against ‘inappropriately directed laughter.”

Since the “soft method” — trying to win the public opinion, exposing the absurdities of speech codes — wasn’t working, FIRE decided to drop the gloves and go to court to affirm First Amendment rights. And even when colleges are cornered with their nonsensical codes, they still act like victims.

“Our first case in Modesto, California, was beyond parody; some people even though we had created it,” recalls Lukianoff. “On Constitution Day a veteran wanted to hand copies of the Constitution on campus. He recorded his journey because he was convinced something that would go wrong, which it did. He was stopped by a campus officer who told him he had to fill out forms before he could exercise his free speech.”

“He went to the main office and the receptionist browsed through a fat binder,” he continued. “She said he could do his distribution somewhere in October. Campus officials kept acting like the victim until the veteran’s video got released.”

And it’s not even the worst case yet. “The University of Hawaii has the so-called free speech zone that’s limited to a tiny puddle of water away from student life. ‘This is not the 1960s’ claimed university officials. They seem to forget that all public colleges have to submit to the Constitution including the First Amendment.”

To find out if your college limits free speech to a yard-square area which you need to reserve two weeks in advance to use or if they basically forbid you to offend anyone, visit theFire.org.
Why should I care if someone wants "freedom of speech" in order to insult and offend the disadvantaged on a college campus? Is it really that important to ridicule people in wheel chairs or something, or call blacks the "n" word? Maybe we should teach Mein Kampf in public schools? I've heard that Hitler was actually a pretty good and persuasive writer. Might even be considered a classic of human civilization in some morbid ways. I mean it sounds almost like a quixotesque crusade to me. "OMG, we need to be able to offend people! The sky is falling! Next they'll be taking our first born from us." Seriously? Does offending others mean that much? Most of the people who seem to be complaining about PC appear to be the ones who just want to be assholes on campus. If they want to be assholes there are plenty of places off campus grounds to be so. It's not the end of the world. Humanity will surely survive. I think we can all calm down already. If some are that motivated to action and really want to stand for something worthwhile, then there are tons of worthy causes out there to pursue. Otherwise maybe they need to get a hobby or something to pass time.
I don't think you're thick. I just think the speech codes have gone way overboard. And the trigger warnings and the sexual assault codes. And I do think that radicals (who may offend) ought to be able to speak on campus and the remedy should not be expulsion but dialogue.
I respect your opinion. I tried to clarify what is meant by "political correctness" with VT but she didn't seem interested in the endeavor. What exactly is meant by "political correctness".

The definition I googled was: "the avoidance, often considered as taken to extremes, of forms of expression or action that are perceived to exclude, marginalize, or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against."

Is it to say that we are talking generally about avoiding the exclusion or marginalization of minorities or the disadvantaged? Or are we discussing only extreme examples where such values are taken to absurd levels.

If we're simply commiserating about excesses of "PCness" here, then I agree there are cases where it goes overboard. Most universities I'm aware of seem to have a process of reporting or appealing such grievances. If we are talking about throwing out the notion of "PCness" altogether (defined as avoidance of marginalization, etc. of minorities or the disadvantaged), then I disagree. But it's not clear to me what is being talked about or what is being proposed as the alternative.

I mean, I've seen references to "freedom of speech" which seems to suggest to me that we should do away with any and all rules toward treating each other with dignity in the classroom and I watched the Pinker video which seems to suggest that people are too "coddled" or "protected". I'm not sure what to think of that, who is too "coddled", everyone who complains about discrimination or just a few who go to the extreme?
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by Gary Childress »

Skip wrote: Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:01 am I guess Americans resort to litigation because they can't manage moderation. Better than armed conflict, I suppose.
In the end, things change, nonetheless.
We've had a checkered past with regard to discriminating against certain groups. My understanding is that the US is not the only society that has engaged in discrimination in the past. I mean, Alan Turing apparently committed suicide because of discrimination he experienced in Britain toward homosexuals (for example). But if the country you live in doesn't discriminate against others, then good on you. Maybe no such rules are needed at all in the classroom. It's obviously up to your society, not ours. In my experience, as an American, I think it's probably a good idea to have some here.
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by Gary Childress »

Melchior wrote: Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:40 am
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:52 am
Melchior wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:09 am

Why are you here?
Because I feel like being here.
You don't qualify.
Why don't I "qualify"? What exactly are the "qualifications" to be here that I don't posses?
Skip
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by Skip »

Gary Childress wrote: Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:51 pm
We've had a checkered past with regard to discriminating against certain groups.
Indeed! Take smokers, for example. When I was young, we could smoke on airplanes, in banks, in movie theaters, in hospital waiting rooms, at our desks at work - everywhere except in school.
Now, we see the odd pathetic waif huddled over her little ember outside in the cold.

Much the same thing happened to the n-word, though I see there is more rearguard action - or maybe a resurgence of insurgency? - than there was from the smokers, who pretty much acquiesced from the start of their persecution... because we were mostly peaceable, law-abiding citizens in the first place, and partly because we always knew we were in the wrong.

In this matter of civil speech, too, perhaps the schools must lead the way. Some may go too far; make their rules too strict, or unclear, or be overzealous in enforcement. They will meet more resistance, because they are up against a more aggressive, and far better organized opposition. So there will be more lawsuits. But eventually, it will become the norm to refrain from hate speech in public, as well as on university campuses.
My understanding is that the US is not the only society that has engaged in discrimination in the past. I mean, Alan Turing apparently committed suicide because of discrimination he experienced in Britain toward homosexuals (for example).
I don't disagree, but I hardly think that was under consideration within this thread.
But if the country you live in doesn't discriminate against others, then good on you. Maybe no such rules are needed at all in the classroom. It's obviously up to your society, not ours. In my experience, as an American, I think it's probably a good idea to have some here.
Rules are needed everywhere. The main point I've tried to make is that universities and colleges - even in the US - have the right to make their own rules. That doesn't save them from litigation if some organization considers those rules unconstitutional.
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

It takes a certain amount of intelligence to understand the depth and irony of the term 'Political Correctness', so I'm not surprised you sad American idiots are having such a hard time grasping it. It's also not surprising that the ones misusing the term the most are the American ultra right, which of course plays right into the hands of the PC lobby. I'm surprised anyone over there even knows whether shoes go on before or after socks. Perhaps that's how the 'sockless' fad started.
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