Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

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Wyman
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by Wyman »

Gary Childress wrote: Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:28 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:38 am
Gary Childress wrote: Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:00 am

Agree with Skip on this. I think I rather ought to stick up for the bullied than for the bullies.
Who's bullying who?
I thought PC was mostly about treating each other with dignity. When I was in college in the late 1980s there was quite a bit of mean spirited behavior, pecking on minorities, gays or the handicapped. I took some online classes from a public university a couple years ago and they basically made the stipulation that we not insult one another and treat each other with dignity. I don't see much wrong with that. I didn't find it too difficult to abide by those rules.
You went to a school where they picked on gays, handicapped and minorities - where was that? But seriously, PC is not about bullies. It is about changing the normal behavior of non-bigots. They seek to change curriculum, to ban the discussion of certain ideas, to prevent any perceived slight or micro aggression. Take the example of Huckleberry Finn. This cannot be discussed anymore because two of the characters are named n***** Jim and Injun Joe. Any black kid or Native American kid in the classroom might be offended or feel marginalized. Do you agree with this? This is not a case of bullying, but a case of seeking not to offend.

btw - I didn't star out the n***** in n***** Jim, this website did. So I guess everyone here is too much of a delicate flower to read such words.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

I don't believe it. Someone who so far actually gets it, although it's a lot worse than most people think. ↑
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by Gary Childress »

Wyman wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:57 am
Gary Childress wrote: Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:28 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:38 am
Who's bullying who?
I thought PC was mostly about treating each other with dignity. When I was in college in the late 1980s there was quite a bit of mean spirited behavior, pecking on minorities, gays or the handicapped. I took some online classes from a public university a couple years ago and they basically made the stipulation that we not insult one another and treat each other with dignity. I don't see much wrong with that. I didn't find it too difficult to abide by those rules.
You went to a school where they picked on gays, handicapped and minorities - where was that? But seriously, PC is not about bullies. It is about changing the normal behavior of non-bigots. They seek to change curriculum, to ban the discussion of certain ideas, to prevent any perceived slight or micro aggression. Take the example of Huckleberry Finn. This cannot be discussed anymore because two of the characters are named n***** Jim and Injun Joe. Any black kid or Native American kid in the classroom might be offended or feel marginalized. Do you agree with this? This is not a case of bullying, but a case of seeking not to offend.

btw - I didn't star out the n***** in n***** Jim, this website did. So I guess everyone here is too much of a delicate flower to read such words.
I went to college in the US. There was a substantial amount of prejudice toward certain people and groups back then in most schools in the US. Not as bad as pre-Civil Rights era I'm sure but there was a fair amount. Much of the prejudice went on behind the backs of the victims but it was still prejudice. There still is some of that going on in colleges from what I've heard from younger people I've talked to.

Perhaps "bully" isn't the most precise word to describe prejudice and bigotry. but undermining the dignity of others is not a good thing, I don't think. Treating each other with dignity in the learning environment seems like it's probably a good thing to me. Like I said earlier I recently took some online university courses and there were a few rules of behavior but nothing seriously overboard. I haven't been on a college campus lately. I sort of wonder if things are as bad as a few sensational stories make things out to be.

As far as teaching Huckleberry Finn, I'm not aware that it's been banned in most colleges. I'm guessing mostly in grammar schools and secondary schools. I know there are a lot of old cartoons and movies that are not typically shown anymore because of inappropriate racial innuendo. I don't know if I should agree with it or not. I mean, I'm not a racial minority, but I can see where someone who is a racial minority may feel a little self conscious or uncomfortable with it. To be honest, as a white person, being reminded of how whites treated blacks in the not so distant past is sort of embarrassing and uncomfortable to me and makes me cringe. Therefore if I were a teacher I might sidestep a lecture on Huckleberry Finn just to avoid the shame but maybe it's best to teach it instead. I don't know.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Gary Childress wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:24 am
Wyman wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:57 am
Gary Childress wrote: Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:28 pm

I thought PC was mostly about treating each other with dignity. When I was in college in the late 1980s there was quite a bit of mean spirited behavior, pecking on minorities, gays or the handicapped. I took some online classes from a public university a couple years ago and they basically made the stipulation that we not insult one another and treat each other with dignity. I don't see much wrong with that. I didn't find it too difficult to abide by those rules.
You went to a school where they picked on gays, handicapped and minorities - where was that? But seriously, PC is not about bullies. It is about changing the normal behavior of non-bigots. They seek to change curriculum, to ban the discussion of certain ideas, to prevent any perceived slight or micro aggression. Take the example of Huckleberry Finn. This cannot be discussed anymore because two of the characters are named n***** Jim and Injun Joe. Any black kid or Native American kid in the classroom might be offended or feel marginalized. Do you agree with this? This is not a case of bullying, but a case of seeking not to offend.

btw - I didn't star out the n***** in n***** Jim, this website did. So I guess everyone here is too much of a delicate flower to read such words.
I went to college in the US. There was a substantial amount of prejudice toward certain people and groups back then in most schools in the US. Not as bad as pre-Civil Rights era I'm sure but there was a fair amount. Much of the prejudice went on behind the backs of the victims but it was still prejudice. There still is some of that going on in colleges from what I've heard from younger people I've talked to.

Perhaps "bully" isn't the most precise word to describe prejudice and bigotry. but undermining the dignity of others is not a good thing, I don't think. Treating each other with dignity in the learning environment seems like it's probably a good thing to me. Like I said earlier I recently took some online university courses and there were a few rules of behavior but nothing seriously overboard. I haven't been on a college campus lately. I sort of wonder if things are as bad as a few sensational stories make things out to be.

As far as teaching Huckleberry Finn, I'm not aware that it's been banned in most colleges. I'm guessing mostly in grammar schools and secondary schools. I know there are a lot of old cartoons and movies that are not typically shown anymore because of inappropriate racial innuendo. I don't know if I should agree with it or not. I mean, I'm not a racial minority, but I can see where someone who is a racial minority may feel a little self conscious or uncomfortable with it. To be honest, as a white person, being reminded of how whites treated blacks in the not so distant past is sort of embarrassing and uncomfortable to me and makes me cringe. Therefore if I were a teacher I might sidestep a lecture on Huckleberry Finn just to avoid the shame but maybe it's best to teach it instead. I don't know.
Is that what the PC 'think'? That they are on a noble mission to rid the world of all nastiness? Hahaha. I think not. And don't tar everyone with your brush. I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to use the word n1gger if it suits me to. I have nothing to do with racist white American lynch mobs. I have also never made fun of anyone who is spastic, retarded, short, fat, big-nosed, old, 'transgendered', disfigured or in any way stands out as abnormal or disadvantaged, and I don't need any PC fuck-heads telling me what to say or think!
Last edited by vegetariantaxidermy on Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Skip
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by Skip »

See, I'm not entirely convinced that these bogeymen - Political Correctness and the nameless "they" who practice it and inflict it on innocent people who just happened to hold an unpopular opinion - actually exist. The charges and complaints against it/them are so nebulous as to defy definition, let alone a coherent response.
Who did what, when, where, under what circumstances, to whom? Show me. Prove it. Cite examples of the actual oppressive or unlawful behaviour to which you oh-so-strenuously object.

Colleges and universities are not government agencies. They are not run by the state; they are autonomous corporate entities. They have constitutions, boards of trustees and administrative bodies.
Each institution has a mission statement, a style, a purpose, a protocol for designing curricula, hiring staff, organizing accommodation, facilities and activities and regulating the student body. All of this information is available to prospective students before they decide which college they wish to apply to. Nobody forces any student to attend a school whose rules are inimical to their own aspirations or temperament.
What the hell is your problem?

As for the world changing - it just does. Some things that were considered perfectly all right in 1700, are no longer permitted, and things that were utterly forbidden then are now commonplace rights. Laws change, rules change, attitudes change. People change them for whatever reason and by whatever means they see fit from time to time.
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

You didn't look at the Pinker video then. If you don't understand what he's saying then there's no point in trying to reason with you.
Gary Childress
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by Gary Childress »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:54 am
Gary Childress wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:24 am
Wyman wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:57 am
You went to a school where they picked on gays, handicapped and minorities - where was that? But seriously, PC is not about bullies. It is about changing the normal behavior of non-bigots. They seek to change curriculum, to ban the discussion of certain ideas, to prevent any perceived slight or micro aggression. Take the example of Huckleberry Finn. This cannot be discussed anymore because two of the characters are named n***** Jim and Injun Joe. Any black kid or Native American kid in the classroom might be offended or feel marginalized. Do you agree with this? This is not a case of bullying, but a case of seeking not to offend.

btw - I didn't star out the n***** in n***** Jim, this website did. So I guess everyone here is too much of a delicate flower to read such words.
I went to college in the US. There was a substantial amount of prejudice toward certain people and groups back then in most schools in the US. Not as bad as pre-Civil Rights era I'm sure but there was a fair amount. Much of the prejudice went on behind the backs of the victims but it was still prejudice. There still is some of that going on in colleges from what I've heard from younger people I've talked to.

Perhaps "bully" isn't the most precise word to describe prejudice and bigotry. but undermining the dignity of others is not a good thing, I don't think. Treating each other with dignity in the learning environment seems like it's probably a good thing to me. Like I said earlier I recently took some online university courses and there were a few rules of behavior but nothing seriously overboard. I haven't been on a college campus lately. I sort of wonder if things are as bad as a few sensational stories make things out to be.

As far as teaching Huckleberry Finn, I'm not aware that it's been banned in most colleges. I'm guessing mostly in grammar schools and secondary schools. I know there are a lot of old cartoons and movies that are not typically shown anymore because of inappropriate racial innuendo. I don't know if I should agree with it or not. I mean, I'm not a racial minority, but I can see where someone who is a racial minority may feel a little self conscious or uncomfortable with it. To be honest, as a white person, being reminded of how whites treated blacks in the not so distant past is sort of embarrassing and uncomfortable to me and makes me cringe. Therefore if I were a teacher I might sidestep a lecture on Huckleberry Finn just to avoid the shame but maybe it's best to teach it instead. I don't know.
Is that what the PC 'think'? That they are on a noble mission to rid the world of all nastiness? Hahaha. I think not. And don't tar everyone with your brush. I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to use the word n1gger if it suits me to. I have nothing to do with racist white American lynch mobs. I have also never made fun of anyone who is spastic, retarded, short, fat, big-nosed, old, 'transgendered', disfigured or in any way stands out as abnormal or disadvantaged, and I don't need any PC fuck-heads telling me what to say or think!
If you took a college course today would you not obey the basic terms of refraining from insulting or being derisive toward other students in class. As far as I know most colleges (at least in the US) don't ask too much more than that. I'm not perfect either but it seems pretty reasonable to me. I mean most businesses have rules by which employees are required to conduct themselves toward customers and clients. Insulting a customer might get a person fired. Should colleges not prepare people for professional life after college?
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by Gary Childress »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:06 am You didn't look at the Pinker video then. If you don't understand what he's saying then there's no point in trying to reason with you.
If you are saying that there are cases of people going overboard with "political correctness" then I agree. I've seen a few outrageous videos. Is it as out of control as a few absurd sensational examples may suggest? I have my reservations and doubts.
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Gary Childress wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:35 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:54 am
Gary Childress wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:24 am

I went to college in the US. There was a substantial amount of prejudice toward certain people and groups back then in most schools in the US. Not as bad as pre-Civil Rights era I'm sure but there was a fair amount. Much of the prejudice went on behind the backs of the victims but it was still prejudice. There still is some of that going on in colleges from what I've heard from younger people I've talked to.

Perhaps "bully" isn't the most precise word to describe prejudice and bigotry. but undermining the dignity of others is not a good thing, I don't think. Treating each other with dignity in the learning environment seems like it's probably a good thing to me. Like I said earlier I recently took some online university courses and there were a few rules of behavior but nothing seriously overboard. I haven't been on a college campus lately. I sort of wonder if things are as bad as a few sensational stories make things out to be.

As far as teaching Huckleberry Finn, I'm not aware that it's been banned in most colleges. I'm guessing mostly in grammar schools and secondary schools. I know there are a lot of old cartoons and movies that are not typically shown anymore because of inappropriate racial innuendo. I don't know if I should agree with it or not. I mean, I'm not a racial minority, but I can see where someone who is a racial minority may feel a little self conscious or uncomfortable with it. To be honest, as a white person, being reminded of how whites treated blacks in the not so distant past is sort of embarrassing and uncomfortable to me and makes me cringe. Therefore if I were a teacher I might sidestep a lecture on Huckleberry Finn just to avoid the shame but maybe it's best to teach it instead. I don't know.
Is that what the PC 'think'? That they are on a noble mission to rid the world of all nastiness? Hahaha. I think not. And don't tar everyone with your brush. I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to use the word n1gger if it suits me to. I have nothing to do with racist white American lynch mobs. I have also never made fun of anyone who is spastic, retarded, short, fat, big-nosed, old, 'transgendered', disfigured or in any way stands out as abnormal or disadvantaged, and I don't need any PC fuck-heads telling me what to say or think!
If you took a college course today would you not obey the basic terms of refraining from insulting or being derisive toward other students in class. As far as I know most colleges (at least in the US) don't ask too much more than that. I'm not perfect either but it seems pretty reasonable to me. I mean most businesses have rules by which employees are required to conduct themselves toward customers and clients. Insulting a customer might get a person fired. Should colleges not prepare people for professional life after college?
I wasn't aware of any such rules. Here we are treated as adults at university although that's probably changed now, thanks to yank PCness poisoning everything. If you were abusing everyone I suppose you would be asked to leave. No one did. Everyone was just there to learn.
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by Gary Childress »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:34 am
Gary Childress wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:35 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:54 am
Is that what the PC 'think'? That they are on a noble mission to rid the world of all nastiness? Hahaha. I think not. And don't tar everyone with your brush. I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to use the word n1gger if it suits me to. I have nothing to do with racist white American lynch mobs. I have also never made fun of anyone who is spastic, retarded, short, fat, big-nosed, old, 'transgendered', disfigured or in any way stands out as abnormal or disadvantaged, and I don't need any PC fuck-heads telling me what to say or think!
If you took a college course today would you not obey the basic terms of refraining from insulting or being derisive toward other students in class. As far as I know most colleges (at least in the US) don't ask too much more than that. I'm not perfect either but it seems pretty reasonable to me. I mean most businesses have rules by which employees are required to conduct themselves toward customers and clients. Insulting a customer might get a person fired. Should colleges not prepare people for professional life after college?
I wasn't aware of any such rules. Here we are treated as adults at university although that's probably changed now, thanks to yank PCness poisoning everything. If you were abusing everyone I suppose you would be asked to leave. No one did. Everyone was just there to learn.
Well, there weren't really such formal rules in place (that I'm aware of) when I first went to college in the US back in the late 1980s either. But for whatever reason, they appear to have a few more rules in place now.

Googling a definition of "PC" I get:

"the avoidance, often considered as taken to extremes, of forms of expression or action that are perceived to exclude, marginalize, or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against."

By "PC" do you mean only extreme cases or do you more generally mean "avoidance of forms of expression or action that are perceived to exclude, marginalize or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against." I can see where extreme cases can cause uproar but that's pretty much true of any ideal or concept. Otherwise, in normal cases, I don't see where it's such a bad thing to avoid such harm to disadvantaged groups or those discriminated against. They could probably use a little extra kindness and compassion here and there, I would think.
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

If you don't get it by now then you never will.
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by Gary Childress »

What is there to "get"? Are the majority being "oppressed" by minorities now? Have you ever been a victim of "political correctness" going overboard? I know I haven't.
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by Skip »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:06 am You didn't look at the Pinker video then. If you don't understand what he's saying then there's no point in trying to reason with you.
What's Pinker to do with colleges setting a standard of civil behaviour?
No, actually, I've never been any good at being reasond-at.
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Not very good at reading either.
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Re: Noam Chomsky Versus Free Speech

Post by Wyman »

Gary Childress wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:10 pm What is there to "get"? Are the majority being "oppressed" by minorities now? Have you ever been a victim of "political correctness" going overboard? I know I haven't.
You have your head in the sand. Google 'college speech codes.' Here is one quick example I pulled:

Greg Lukianoff of the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE) gave hope to students tired of asking permission to speak out on campus at the eighth Student for Liberty Conference. Thanks to his organization, 36 colleges have abolished or severely scaled down their speech codes. But the fight is far from over.

“Over 55 percent of colleges we surveyed have speech codes that wouldn’t stand court challenges,” says Lukianoff. “These colleges include Jacksonville University, which forbade students to offend anyone, or this other college that had a rule against ‘inappropriately directed laughter.”

Since the “soft method” — trying to win the public opinion, exposing the absurdities of speech codes — wasn’t working, FIRE decided to drop the gloves and go to court to affirm First Amendment rights. And even when colleges are cornered with their nonsensical codes, they still act like victims.

“Our first case in Modesto, California, was beyond parody; some people even though we had created it,” recalls Lukianoff. “On Constitution Day a veteran wanted to hand copies of the Constitution on campus. He recorded his journey because he was convinced something that would go wrong, which it did. He was stopped by a campus officer who told him he had to fill out forms before he could exercise his free speech.”

“He went to the main office and the receptionist browsed through a fat binder,” he continued. “She said he could do his distribution somewhere in October. Campus officials kept acting like the victim until the veteran’s video got released.”

And it’s not even the worst case yet. “The University of Hawaii has the so-called free speech zone that’s limited to a tiny puddle of water away from student life. ‘This is not the 1960s’ claimed university officials. They seem to forget that all public colleges have to submit to the Constitution including the First Amendment.”

To find out if your college limits free speech to a yard-square area which you need to reserve two weeks in advance to use or if they basically forbid you to offend anyone, visit theFire.org.
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