Why are U.S. citizens ignoring the 6% gain on GDP, by not nationalizing health care?

How should society be organised, if at all?

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Science Fan
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Re: Why are U.S. citizens ignoring the 6% gain on GDP, by not nationalizing health care?

Post by Science Fan »

If self-ownership is real, like, let's say the law of conservation of energy, then please provide some objective evidence for this claim of yours?

How does one even go about "owning oneself"? Since laws have to establish property rights so one can own some object, what laws are you relying upon to give you self-ownership? If you are claiming such laws are needed, then how can self-ownership be natural? If you are claiming no such laws are needed for self-ownership, then other than your assertions, regarding self-ownership, how could anyone objectively verify self-ownership? Moreover, what would be the difference between this alleged self-ownership and simply no one owning you, including yourself?
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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk »

Self-ownership is self-possession, Sci.

It's not a legal principle (though I suppose legality can be derived from it).

It's not some physical property (though I suppose the same electro-chemistry that allows me to be 'me' is the source of what appears to be a function of me [the sense that I am mine].

Do I really have to explain this to you?

Have you no sense of you being yours?
Science Fan
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Re: Why are U.S. citizens ignoring the 6% gain on GDP, by not nationalizing health care?

Post by Science Fan »

Henry: By merely using different words to describe the same made-up imaginary claim, you aren't making much progress.

The fact you can't do anything other than simply repeat your assertion that self-ownership is real supports my claim that it is entirely imaginary on your part, and not real in any way.
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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk »

So: you don't have the sense you belong to you.

Explains a lot.
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Greatest I am
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Re: Why are U.S. citizens ignoring the 6% gain on GDP, by not nationalizing health care?

Post by Greatest I am »

Science Fan wrote: Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:36 pm Yeah, the sea-level rise is a huge problem ready to bite us in the ass in the not-too-distant future. This is a perfect example of the hypocrisy of the libertarian right. When we buy a gallon of gasoline, we are not paying for all of the costs associated with that gallon of gas. We are not paying for the costs involved in sea-level rise, or the health-problems from having high-carbon levels, or the costs of financing terrorism, as just three examples. An economic transaction is only efficient when private costs and benefits associated with a transaction equal the social costs and benefits related to the transaction. Presently, while people on the right claim that fossil fuels are more "efficient" than alternative forms of energy, that's only because the costs associated with fossil fuels are being socialized by the larger community, and are not being paid for at the pump. If one did pay for the full costs associated with fossil fuels at the pump, then the alternative fuel sources would be far cheaper; that is, they are, right now, actually more economically efficient.

Too bad most politicians can't explain something so simple to the average voter. Too bad the libertarian right that claims to be against socialism, is using socialism to encourage the inefficient use of fossil fuels.
You nailed it.

https://www.greenbiz.com/blog/2013/04/2 ... cost-water

Regards
DL
Science Fan
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Re: Why are U.S. citizens ignoring the 6% gain on GDP, by not nationalizing health care?

Post by Science Fan »

I don't have a sense of self-ownership. I have no idea what that even means.

Here's the irony about libertarians and their made-up concept of self-ownership --- it is a concept consistent with Marxism. After all if one owns themselves and the fruit of their labor, isn't this what Marx claims as the basis for his theory regarding exploitation of labor? So, one has both Marxists on one end and libertarian/anarchists on the other end, relying on the same assumption of self-ownership, yet, reaching dramatically different conclusions. Just goes to show that the concept is not too productive, even for ideological grounds.
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henry quirk
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I'm not libertarian.

Post by henry quirk »

"I don't have a sense of self-ownership. I have no idea what that even means."

So, really, no sense that you belong to you, that you decide how you should move and act in the world, that you're self-directing and -responsible?

Wow.

Takes all types, I guess...*shrug*
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Re: Why are U.S. citizens ignoring the 6% gain on GDP, by not nationalizing health care?

Post by Science Fan »

You don't have a sense of self-ownership either, which is why you can't present any objective evidence for the alleged existence of this made-up, fictional concept of "self-ownership."
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Re: Why are U.S. citizens ignoring the 6% gain on GDP, by not nationalizing health care?

Post by Science Fan »

Self-directing and responsible? Those are two different claims. From what we are learning in neurobiology, it's doubtful that we are "self-directing." As far as being "responsible," that takes place according to laws we make up, not because of anything objectively natural. It used to be that epileptics were considered evil and now we do not hold them personally responsible for their medical disorder.
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henry quirk
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it's okay, sci, you don't get it: ain't nuthin' to be ashamed about

Post by henry quirk »

:|
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Re: Why are U.S. citizens ignoring the 6% gain on GDP, by not nationalizing health care?

Post by Science Fan »

You don't get it. You cannot even give a distinction between no one owning me, and this alleged self-ownership. If no one owns me, then what do I need a fictional concept of "self-ownership" for? You've never explained.

Then you went on a tangent and claimed free-will exists, which I have seen no scientific evidence for.
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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk »

No worries, Sci.

We all have our limits (lord knows, I do) and I think we've reached yours.
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Re: Why are U.S. citizens ignoring the 6% gain on GDP, by not nationalizing health care?

Post by Science Fan »

Right, Henry, my "limit" is that I refuse to swallow made-up fanciful bullshit, like mythical concepts involving "self-ownership."

Do you charge yourself rent by the way? Since you allegedly own yourself?
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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk »

It's okay, Sci, really.
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Re: Why are U.S. citizens ignoring the 6% gain on GDP, by not nationalizing health care?

Post by Science Fan »

Henry: Then show us your owner's certificate for yourself? This I got to see.
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