~ The Disruptive Economies ~

How should society be organised, if at all?

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Bill Wiltrack
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~ The Disruptive Economies ~

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

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If you want to steal a mans money - take his wallet.


If you want to steal everyone's money - take their currency.




If an individual or a small group of people control a currency, they control the people. If there are walls, or economic stops, around that country ALL OTHER LAWS within that country are irrelevant.






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Re: ~ The Disruptive Economies ~

Post by Science Fan »

I suppose if one wants to entirely ignore economic history, and focus instead on the claims of Austrian economists, then one may reach this conclusion. I, however, prefer to take actual history into account. John Locke came up with this absurd claim that free-markets are natural and governments are not natural. When asked why this was true, he claimed it was because God said so. He produced no evidence to support his claim. History tells us a much different story than John Locke, as well as the Austrian economists who ignore history.

Look at the earliest forms of money, currency, and you will find political symbols on them. Currency is always established by some form of political government, because it is the only way of ensuring that people will actually use that currency within the region governed by that political body. While this may sound oppressive, it is the only way to give rise to free markets, which depend on currency. It's not the case that John Smith accepts money because he believes that Mary Jones down the street will also accept the money, and so, by such speculative beliefs currency came into being. There is no historical evidence for this claim. The reason why John Smith accepts currency is because he knows that Mary Jones must accept it, because that's what the law is.

We also know historically that disasters can occur when central banking is either broken up into a larger group of people running a central bank, or central bankers have their hands tied by a gold-standard. An example of the first case is the American depression of 1837, which was partly due to Andrew Jackson destroying the federal central bank, which was limiting loans to deflate a real-estate bubble. Jackson transferred the federal funds to local state central banks that in turn loaned the money out like crazy, making the real-estate bubble worse, and causing one of the greatest economic collapses of all time. Most Americans have never even heard of this crash, but it was so bad that most states defaulted on loans owed to European nations and never repaid them. At the time, the Rothschilds were large bankers in Europe, and this was one reason for the demonization of Jewish bankers in the USA ----- how dare a Jewish banker ask to be repaid and how dare he suggest that because the states of the union defaulted on their European loans that people of Europe should not provide future loans to those states.

An example of the latter category is the Great Depression of the 1930s. The Federal Reserve kept interest rates artificially low, causing inflation, and an outflow of capital, because the Fed wanted to reestablish the gold standard, so adopted these policies so England could be in a situation to do so. One can also look at Greece and see the problems that result when a nation no longer has a central bank. The gold-standard denies a nation to regulate its own monetary, and, by extension, fiscal policies, to address its own macro-economic problems, and forces them instead to subvert domestic economic policies to supporting free-trade. The same situation occurs when a country like Greece gives up its own currency for that of the Euro. It then loses the ability to make its own necessary domestic adjustments to keep its economy running.

Overall, a central bank at the national level has worked well. But, in any event, there is no currency unless it is first established through a government. It's not a form of oppression when this happens, it is vitally necessary to establish free-markets in the first place.
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Re: ~ The Disruptive Economies ~

Post by bobevenson »

Bill Wiltrack wrote: Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:45 am If you want to steal everyone's money, take their currency.
No, just let the government dilute its value through inflation.
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Re: ~ The Disruptive Economies ~

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

bobevenson wrote: Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:56 pm
Bill Wiltrack wrote: Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:45 am If you want to steal everyone's money, take their currency.
No, just let the government dilute its value through inflation.
Or better, Bob's AEP.

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Re: ~ The Disruptive Economies ~

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Science Fan wrote: Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:58 pm I suppose if one wants to entirely ignore economic history, and focus instead on the claims of Austrian economists, then one may reach this conclusion.
Your target there doesn't understand any of that. He's bleating about cryptocurrencies again because he put his entire pension into Ethereum.
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Re: ~ The Disruptive Economies ~

Post by Science Fan »

I heard Ethereum will come in handy during the upcoming zombie apocalypse.
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Re: ~ The Disruptive Economies ~

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

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I appreciate the member who took the time and craftsmanship to articulate that rather long response.

And for the most part, I understand it.

I do however veer a bit from the ultimate path that fellow member has chosen…

I have spoken here many time before about, The Third Industrial Revolution; The Digital Revolution, that we are all now collectively experiencing.

The first industrial revolution that mankind experienced was farming.

The second industrial revolution was what I call the hydraulic/electrical revolution.

The third industrial revolution is the digital revolution.

In the first industrial revolution mankind learned how to harness the power of nature.

In the second revolution mankind learned how to harness the power of fluids & electricity.

In this Third Industrial Revolution we are learning how to harness the power of our minds.


In each industrial revolution there are three major characteristics that help define that age or any group of people in any age.

Those three characteristics are; commerce, communication, and transportation.


To take a look at one of these characteristics - commerce, we will see that each one of these industrial revolutions carries with it it’s own form of currency.

During the first industrial revolution, or people living within the bounds of the first industrial revolution, currency was anything widely acceptable as of containing value. Tangible items.

In my country America, native indians are the freshest & most clear example. Native American indians had trading posts, were individuals would come literally to trade items for items: horses, squaws, corn, & clothing were the most familiar items of trade.

These mutually agreed upon items were literally the currency of a select tribe or intra-tribal groups of people.

This similar type of currency is reflected throughout the world even to this day in some remote locations.



The second industrial revolution reflected the expansion of mankind's knowledge outside of himself.

Our knowledge and understanding greatly expanded in an extremely rapid manner.

Our language and understanding greatly expanded through the creation and use of metaphor.

We were able to conceive much more in relation to time & space. We created a metaphor of value. That metaphor is fiat. Paper currency.

One characteristic of fiat that we are dealing with throughout the world is the sort-of slide rule value that paper fiat lends itself to.

*The average lifespan of ANY government created, government backed paper currency is 27 years. That average is taken throughout the ENTIRE known history of ALL paper currencies in ALL governments.

EVERY CASE of EVERY fiat that has EVER been created has met the EXACT SAME FATE; the compunction of a governance or a particular governing party of a state to borrow against the future to make the present appear to be a bit more rosey is irresistible.

Compounded over time this borrowing has rendered EVERY fiat currency that has ever been created as worthless.

Eventually hyperinflation ensues along with collapse of former institutions. A new economy eventually is created. Wash & repeat.


Crypto-currency seems to be the emerging world-wide currency for this Third Industrial Revolution.

Crypto is short for cryptography, which is a type of arithmetic. Cryptography literally means to hide or to separate or to cover.

Which, for us, in this topic within this thread can be understood as mankind's ability to harness numbers.

As we better understand than most people, we as philosophers realize that number exist nowhere in the natural world. Numbers exist ONLY IN OUR MINDS.


**One important characteristic that I think is worthy to note, cryptocurrency is completely intangible. There is no direct outer representation of any bit-coins. There is no crypto-currency that you can touch. They exist exclusively in our minds.



Whether it be bitcoin or as another member here at The PhilosophyNow Forums referred to in this thread - ether may be the new universal currency or most probably, a new cryptocurrency will emerge.

Today crypto-currencies are the currency characteristic of The Disruptive Economy.


You now have been officially exposed and introduced into the cryptocurrency community.

You now have the choice to be one of the earliest adopters that will benefit from this change or you can chose to be one of the many that will be crushed by this new emerging technology.






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Re: ~ The Disruptive Economies ~

Post by Science Fan »

You should keep a few historical points in mind when it comes to things like bit-coin. Bit-coin will never become a true currency because it is not issue by a governmental body. The reason why Americans use dollars is not just because dollars are issued by the US federal government, but because the US government demands the payment of taxes in US dollars. That's one of the major reasons governments tax --- it drives the use of the currency it issues. That's why we fill out "tax returns" --- in recognition of the fact we are "returning" money to the entity that originally issued it. It's not that the government needs to tax in order to finance its operations. Since the federal government is a currency issuer, it can print the money it needs out of thin air to buy anything it desires. This, however, can produce inflation, which, from an economic standpoint, is simply a tax on monetary savings. The thing is unless the government first spends money it creates, one cannot acquire money in order to pay one's tax bill. So, government spending occurs first -- before taxes. Since no government accepts bit-coin for the payment of taxes, bit-coin, and other similar currencies, will be limited. There is also a good reason to believe that there is a bubble in such things as bit-coin and when those bubbles burst, you'll see people getting very shy about owning such "currency."

The reference to Indians was not a reference to currency, because that was barter. Currency is always the same form -- from the very first time it existed, to the present --- it's an IOU. This is true whether currency is gold coins, backed by gold, or pure fiat currency. This has not changed over time at all.
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Re: ~ The Disruptive Economies ~

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

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Appreciate the detailed, well articulated response.

I understand you and essentially we are saying the exact same thing - only looking at this topic from different foxholes.


NOBODY knows where the crypto-currency markets are headed. Your perspective is just as valid as anyone else's. And I have held your view.

My overall view continues to return to a very basic premiss; Crypto-currencies consist of three concentric circles.

The innermost circle
is composed of developers.

The second circle. The circle enveloping that inner circle of developers is composed of early adopters.

The third most outer circle will be composed of the general consumer.


Most crypto-currencies are still in the developmental stage; a core of individuals writing code as fast as they can.

This developmental stage, at this point, is certainly ongoing - at a blinding speed.


We see now some early adopters. At this point, not many active users.

Very few consumers are actually using crypto-currency tokens as currency or as a store of value.



There you have it. I think there is a loooooong way to go for digital blockchain technology to affect our lives.

But it is definitely happening now.


Will there be bubbles? - YES!

Part of the excitement, for me at least, is the dramatic volatility that we see now in this highly unregulated arena.







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Re: ~ The Disruptive Economies ~

Post by Science Fan »

You have a point there --- there are definitely certain aspects of these currencies that are unique in the world of currency, including the lack of regulation. No one can predict exactly what will occur, but, my gut feeling is that we will see a bubble pop at some point with respect to at least some of these currencies, and my further prediction is that these "currencies" will not be able to recover from the resulting fall-out. I freely admit I can be way off base here, and time will tell.
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Re: ~ The Disruptive Economies ~

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

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Again, same perspective - different foxholes.

I actually look forward to bubbles. - They actually show that things are strengthening.


When you are young & working-out you push your body, or an individual set of muscles, to the max. If you are doing it right you reach a point where you can no longer maintain the weight & the resistance from that weight. That moment, of eventual failure is critical. Your bubble bursts; your muscles reach their most dynamic point, - then collapse. You return to a state of rest breakdown, & repair.

Whether it is in the crypto-market or within your physical body this, I believe, is a relate-able analogy.

New money is still coming in. New fresh blood is flowing at, at this point, an ever increasing rate.


Things will change. This is a new technology. No-one can predict the path of crypto-currency in general or certainly specific cryptocurrencies.

Thanks for the input.







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Re: ~ The Disruptive Economies ~

Post by Science Fan »

The Tulip market never recovered from its bubble. There is a difference when a bubble occurs in the stock market versus these new currencies ---- we have a huge regulatory framework in place to restore confidence in the stock market, but there is no such framework to restore confidence in these currencies if a bubble implodes in one of them. That's why I think the outcome of a bubble bursting for one of these currencies will be pretty much the end of it, and why I have a slightly different opinion from you on the effect of a bubble for these types of currencies.

But, you could be right, there may be structural developments that come along to restore confidence in these currencies that do not yet exist.
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Re: ~ The Disruptive Economies ~

Post by ]...[ »

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In their present state I perceive that CRYPTO-CURRENCIES MUST STRUCTURLY EVOLVE in order to permit large scale adaptation.


Today there are two major hurdles that must eventually be addressed. Sooner the better.


-Battery low - BRB.




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Re: ~ The Disruptive Economies ~

Post by ]...[ »

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Right now cryptocurrencies do two things extremely well; acting as a store of value and as a commodity. -As a note, crypto-currencies SHOLD NOT BE TREATED AS A COMMODITY. Today, cryptocurtencies may be the single most profitable legal commodity in the history of mankind. So, there's that.


Today, looking from the outside, crypto-curriencies need to decrease the time it takes to turn, what is called, a block. Right now Bitcoin takes about 7 minuets to turn a block. For Ethereum the blocktime is about 17 seconds.

Secondly, cryptocurrencies must lower their transaction fees.


So, increase speed/decrease fees.
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Re: ~ The Disruptive Economies ~

Post by ]...[ »

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WOW! Just now learning about a developing cryptocurrencies code, at this time, known as the Lightning Network.


To my surprise & glee the Lightning Network addresses BOTH of the concerns I had stated above just a few days ago.

The developing Lightning Network code will make participating cryptocurrencies transactions FREE & IMMEDIATE.


Things continue to get more & more interesting in the emerging crypto-currency universe.

~ Bill Wiltrack ~






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