Secularism versus the Demonization of Atheists

How should society be organised, if at all?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Secularism versus the Demonization of Atheists

Post by Immanuel Can »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:44 pm
Belinda wrote: Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:31 am But Christians are to be active individuals. To stand up to bullies.
That's a new teaching to me...what part of the Bible are you thinking of there?
Jesus. Blessed are the peacemakers. Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousness.Blessed are the merciful.
And somewhere in this, you read "Blessed are the bully-fighters"? I'm not seeing what you're seeing. And certainly not, "Blessed are the vengeful."
Belinda
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Re: Secularism versus the Demonization of Atheists

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:09 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:44 pm

That's a new teaching to me...what part of the Bible are you thinking of there?
Jesus. Blessed are the peacemakers. Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousness.Blessed are the merciful.
And somewhere in this, you read "Blessed are the bully-fighters"? I'm not seeing what you're seeing. And certainly not, "Blessed are the vengeful."
We have to pick sides and make a stand.This does not necessarily involve visible heroics, but always involves personal risk .
Belinda
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Re: Secularism versus the Demonization of Atheists

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PS. Vengeance is bad not for itself, as I said it's good to know one's 'shadow' nature(Jung). What matters is conscious awareness of what one aspires to, even if vengeance adulterate the mixture. Nobody said that any human being is JC himself.

The place of religious devotions in this scenario is to inspire with the courage to take the right side. The right side is well expressed by Jesus: The Beatitudes. And other great literature.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Secularism versus the Demonization of Atheists

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:54 am We have to pick sides and make a stand.This does not necessarily involve visible heroics, but always involves personal risk .
This part is actually somewhat Biblical, but not at all in the way you're thinking.

There is absolutely no call to resolve the political ills of the world. The personal ills, sure. The social ills, through charity or mercy, sure. But not to appropriate the political machinery of the State to achieve the imposition of a vision of the future on society. In fact, that is denounced.

Biblically, justice is the result of individual moral acts (on one hand) or of Divine action (on the other). Between those two, there is no third political option.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Secularism versus the Demonization of Atheists

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:01 am PS. Vengeance is bad not for itself,
PS. In the case of Divine Judgment, this is true; but in the case of all human actions, actually, it is. Vengeance is allowable only to Someone who has perfect knowledge of the truth and perfect judgment in dealing out what is fit. That describes no human being at all, and definitely no political machine. In Romans 12:19, for example, Christians are expressly forbidden ever to take vengeance, since right retribution is the exclusive province of God Himself, as you can see.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Secularism versus the Demonization of Atheists

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For anyone interested in political collectivist solutions, here is the latest Leftist "success" story:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDxH8cFqj0s
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Arising_uk
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Re: Secularism versus the Demonization of Atheists

Post by Arising_uk »

You don't think that the engineered oil price collapse has anything to do with it?
Belinda
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Re: Secularism versus the Demonization of Atheists

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote:
In Romans 12:19, for example, Christians are expressly forbidden ever to take vengeance, since right retribution is the exclusive province of God Himself, as you can see.
It's only human to feel vengeful. God is incapable of worldly justice so human laws should take account of the reality of human nature. Laws are for keeping order and getting often unruly people to cooperate. When a rapacious or cruel ruling class oppresses people then vengeful feelings and actual vengeance are good.

Paul's advice is suited to enslaved peoples whose welfare is best got by humble posturing, but any society that enjoins slavishness among its workers deserves a revolution, violent if necessary.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Secularism versus the Demonization of Atheists

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:17 pm Immanuel Can wrote:
In Romans 12:19, for example, Christians are expressly forbidden ever to take vengeance, since right retribution is the exclusive province of God Himself, as you can see.
It's only human to feel vengeful.
What humans feel is often not good.
God is incapable of worldly justice
We'll see. That is yet to be established. That He's patient is obvious...but being the Supreme Being has certain advantages. One can wait quite a long time, and still make justice happen.
so human laws should take account of the reality of human nature.

This is true. But that reality is often negative.
Laws are for keeping order and getting often unruly people to cooperate. When a rapacious or cruel ruling class oppresses people then vengeful feelings and actual vengeance are good.
They would be...if the revenge-taker were absolutely knowledgeable, righteous and fair. Otherwise, all you're doing is substituting one kind of injustice for another.
...any society that enjoins slavishness among its workers deserves a revolution, violent if necessary.
As The Who sang, in "Won't Be Fooled Again," the violence of the Revolution overthrows one oppression, and then establishes its own. Or to put it in their words, "Meet the new boss / Same as the old boss."
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Secularism versus the Demonization of Atheists

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:19 pm For anyone interested in political collectivist solutions, here is the latest Leftist "success" story:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDxH8cFqj0s
You are not very bright. You need to see the bigger picture.

BTW. Your mate Jesus was a socialist.
You are a poor christian.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Secularism versus the Demonization of Atheists

Post by Immanuel Can »

Hobbes' Choice wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:06 pm You are not very bright. You need to see the bigger picture.

BTW. Your mate Jesus was a socialist.
You are a poor christian.
Ad hominems are pointless. I'm amazed by now you haven't figured out they don't trouble me in the least.

Best wishes to you.
davidm
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Re: Secularism versus the Demonization of Atheists

Post by davidm »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:47 pm
Hobbes' Choice wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:06 pm You are not very bright. You need to see the bigger picture.

BTW. Your mate Jesus was a socialist.
You are a poor christian.
Ad hominems are pointless. I'm amazed by now you haven't figured out they don't trouble me in the least.

Best wishes to you.
Those weren't ad hominems. They were straight-up descriptions of you.

And yes, they trouble you. Fundy christians are very thin-skinned.
davidm
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Re: Secularism versus the Demonization of Atheists

Post by davidm »

You see, ICan, your imaginary bloodthirsty, vengeful sky monster is nothing more than a projection of your own psyche -- your inner desire to punish, for eternity if you could, people who are different from you. That is the entirety of your disgusting religion. You talk about people changing themselves. Look first to the beam in your own eye.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Secularism versus the Demonization of Atheists

Post by Immanuel Can »

davidm wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:30 pm Those weren't ad hominems. They were straight-up descriptions of you.

And yes, they trouble you. Fundy christians are very thin-skinned.
:D
uwot
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Re: Secularism versus the Demonization of Atheists

Post by uwot »

davidm wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:30 pm Those weren't ad hominems. They were straight-up descriptions of you.

And yes, they trouble you. Fundy christians are very thin-skinned.
True enough. Some of the nutjobs here get very shirty if you disagree with them. Mr Can won't even talk to me.
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