Harbal wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:52 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:26 pm
The purpose God had is to create those capable of entering into a relationship with Him and experiencing and enjoying the love that He intrinsically has.
But I, for one, am still left wondering why God thought that worth doing.
Okay, fair enough. I'll admit, sometimes the human race doesn't seem very admirable.
We must have the choice to accept or reject the proposed relationship. Still, if He's a loving God, He must do everything He can to make us make the right choice
Well you are telling me this but there are others who would tell me something different, and still others who would tell something different again. Since God has never directly communicated his wishes to me -at least not in any way that I can understand- how am I supposed to know who to listen to should I decide to follow God's path.
Jesus said, "He who has ears, let Him hear." That is, if you want to know, you can. But of course, not everybody wants to listen. You have to decide what you want to do, really. I don't doubt you're capable.
and then has even gone so far as to pay off the injustice of our freewill misdeeds by dying for us Himself, on our behalf, so at to make our forgiveness fair and just.
I have genuinely tried to understand what this means but have never been able to make any sense of it. I assume you are talking about Christ "dying for us". He died because he was sentenced to death, how is that dying for us?
That's a good question, but there's an answer.
I'll give you the short version, and you can choose if you want to know more.
God is just. Justice must be fair. Fair means "everybody gets what they deserve." Hitlers and Stalins must be answered. So must local thugs, thieves and liars. But then, so must you and me. Is not the old criticism of God, "He's not fair, because He allows injustice?" Well, what if He doesn't? What if He can put off judgment for a time, perhaps; but not forever? That makes sense, doesn't it? Because if He DID put justice off forever, how could He then be just? So if He's got to do something, He's got to do something about all of us -- including you and me.
But, we might say, How is that loving? If God is love, how can he judge anyone? So now it's a pickle, isn't it? A good God can't not-judge, but a loving God cannot judge us.
But what if God could make a way conclusively to demonstrate His total judgment against evil, but still offer us a way not to be on the receiving end of that?
That is, to coin a phrase, the "crucial" proposition. If God will judge, but not judge you personally, would you accept that as a sufficient demonstration of His justice, and accept that demonstration for yourself? Would you even believe it? And if you did, would you be satisfied that God was fair in offering it? Or would you prefer to say, "Nobody stands in for me: I stand or fall on my own merits"?
One problem left: can He
make us take that option? Can He
force us all to accept it, and still be said to allow us free will? Or does He have to offer it, and let us decide whether or not we think His solution is good enough to stand in our place? Or does every person have an unalienable right to choose whether He will cling to his own terms of "justice," or accept God's proposed solution?
That's it in a very quick package. I'm sure there are follow up questions, but I'll only trouble you with them if you are interested.
But don't take my word for it. Here's the Bible's version
I have already said what my attitude towards the Bible is. I don't know anything about the people who wrote what's in it, I have no way of knowing how reliable they are. In short, I have absolutely no reason to believe a single word of what's in the Bible. Besides, I don't understand the archaic language it's written in, and so have to rely on someone's interpretation of it, so I'm not even in possession of the original meaning, but rather just a version of it shaped by someone else's biases, prejudices and agenda.
I understand the instinctive anxiety. But it's not nearly so hard as you are suggesting. The Bible is the best-translated book in human history...more often and more carefully pored-over by smarter people than any other text. More translations and tools are available to direct it today than at any time in history... and they're practically instantly accessible. See here, for example:
http://biblehub.com/john/3-16.htm
We can read very well for ourselves. And with that, God promises we can understand what we need to -- if, as He said, we have "ears to hear."
- "For God so loved the world, that He gave His unique Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
He only lent us his son, he's got him back now. Why is not believing in him such a deal breaker?
Well, the short answer is as above: God cannot force people to accept His solution to the injustice problem, and still give them free will. To "believe" is nothing more than to say that we accept the terms of the solution God is offering us as just and fair. We don't have to accept that, but then we are declaring our preference to stand or fall in front of a Judge who must be just with us, and to do so on our own merits.
We can do that, but we are not promised a happy outcome: how could we be? In fact, if (as you indicated at the opening of your last message) we have reason to wonder why God would put up with such as we are
at all, then we have good reason to be hesitant about standing up to the perfect Judge on the basis of what we are, don't we?
I can't help what I do or don't believe. You are telling me something that I find implausible, I do not accept that I deserve to be punished for not believing you.
No, not at all. I'm only saying "Listen to what God says, and decide if you think it's Him saying it." Consider the offer God is making to answer the problem of justice on your behalf, and decide whether or not it's the one you want to take. What could be fairer?
For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Saved from what?
From judgment.
After all, we humans have long been calling for just that: we say, "How can a good God allow evil to happen?" Look at Hitler...look at Stalin..." or more modestly, "Look how unfair my life is...look at how people have hurt, insulted, betrayed and abused me. If God is so good, how can He allow this to go on?"
Good question. But what are we asking for, but for God to judge? However, if He is to judge the evil in other people, what do we expect Him to do about the evil in us? What does a truly "just" God
have to do, in that respect?
...by the time the fact of our existence goes out into the Universe I believe it diminishes into insignificance.
Yeah, it's easy to think so. We are very, very tiny.
The Bible asks that very question: "What is man, that
You [i.e. God] are mindful of him?" it asks, with rhetorical flair. It's an old question and a very good one. Really, it's the same point you made at the beginning: why would God bother?
That's the surprising thing: He does. That is why we say, "God is love." There's really no good reason He
has to care.
I cannot see it any other way, just as you cannot see things other than the way you do. Changing my beliefs on the off chance that I may have got it wrong and you may be right is not really an option for me, sorry.
I'd never ask you to do it gratuitously. And why should you believe me anyway? I see no reason you should.
But we human beings are not fated to believe one thing between the womb and the tomb, and incapable of others. We can investigate and decide for ourselves, and we can change our minds if something strikes us as smarter or better than what we've known before. We can learn.
And that is all God is asking us to do. We investigate, decide whether we like the version of things God is offering us or would rather stand on strict justice -- everybody getting what they deserve. And having decided, we live with the decision either way.
Really, nothing could be fairer.