Civil Rights

How should society be organised, if at all?

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Walker
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Re: Civil Rights

Post by Walker »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:12 pm Support what? I don't give a fuck about Sanger or your 'Planned Parenthood', or anything else in your country.
First they came for the deplorables ...

You better hope that someone like Sanger or Clinton doesn’t find you deplorable.

:wink:
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Civil Rights

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Walker wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:16 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:12 pm Support what? I don't give a fuck about Sanger or your 'Planned Parenthood', or anything else in your country.
Sanger identified the “deplorables" of her time, and actively sought to minimize their population.
Why are you telling me?
Walker
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Re: Civil Rights

Post by Walker »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:25 pm
Walker wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:16 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:12 pm Support what? I don't give a fuck about Sanger or your 'Planned Parenthood', or anything else in your country.
Sanger identified the “deplorables" of her time, and actively sought to minimize their population.
Why are you telling me?
Well, you wrote:
“And what does she have to do with the topic?”

First they came for the deplorables ...

The topic is Civil Rights. If you are deplorable to some Progressive like Sanger or Clinton for whatever reason, perhaps for the reason of "not giving a fuck," someone you never met might declare, someone like Clinton or Sanger, that they have the solution for your kind.

If an elderly white woman is deplored by a black pool party then sometimes the solution for some folks is to act out by insulting, assaulting, and degrading the object of their deplortation. Maybe in the future someone will look back and excuse the racism as something folks just did at the time. You know, like Sanger.
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Gustav Bjornstrand
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Re: Civil Rights

Post by Gustav Bjornstrand »

M. Sanger wrote:“Birth Control propaganda is thus the entering wedge for the Eugenic educator. In answering the needs of these thousands upon thousands of submerged mothers, it is possible to use this interest as the foundation for education in prophylaxis, sexual hygiene, and infant welfare. The potential mother is to be shown that maternity need not be slavery but the most effective avenue toward self-development and self-realization. Upon this basis only may we improve the quality of the race.

“As an advocate of Birth Control, I wish to take advantage of the present opportunity to point out that the unbalance between the birth rate of the "unfit" and the "fit", admittedly the greatest present menace to civilization, can never be rectified by the inauguration of a cradle competition between these two classes. In this matter, the example of the inferior classes, the fertility of the feeble-minded, the mentally defective, the poverty-stricken classes, should not be held up for emulation to the mentally and physically fit though less fertile parents of the educated and well-to-do classes. On the contrary, the most urgent problem today is how to limit and discourage the over-fertility of the mentally and physically defective.”
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Hello there Walker. The reason I posted that video --- and Lana is a White Nationalist and is working to confront and undermine many levels of argument that hinder Europeans from having and holding to strong identity-positions (just FYI) --- was only with the intention of dispelling one small calumny. What I notice, and perhaps you notice it too, is that it often happens that someone who opposes some aspect of another's position or ideas will deliberately distort what they have said or written and make it appear in the worst light. It is an underhanded tactic and very destructive to discourse.

Because I have read Madison Grant and Lothrop Stoddard (Harvard-associated researchers from just after the turn of the 20th century whose ideas on culture, race and eugenics were indeed very popular) I understand sufficiently well the ideology that stands behind the desire to protect a given population (a white European population in the main) from racial and cultural contamination from (as they would say) 'the brown world', and today, at this point in my research, these arguments make abstract sense to me. That is, when examined abstractly they have a great deal of sense in them. Therefor, I am of the opinion that the deliberate 'browning' of America, especially as a result of the 1965 Immigration Reform Act, was a national and cultural mistake. I am also of the opinion, and I share this with the White Nationalists, that every ideological construct that undermines White Identity as a valid and moral object must be confronted and challenged and reversed. To define what it is that has come to form an anti-White ideology in our present is, the more that I look into it, a complex and difficult topic. One could refer to the undermining influence of 'cultural Marxism'; one could refer to the guilt-complex within the European mind and soul as a result of meditation on the destruction of Europe as a result of 2 devastating wars, and then especially the guilt and unease about the meaning of the ethnic cleansing project that occurred in Europe (the Shoa). Many factors flowed together to influence the self-destructive turn against 'identity' as I would define it.

Though I recognize it as problematic, and an extremely hot topic in today's climate of opinion and idea, I am capable of recognizing a superior type of person, within any race or culture, from an inferior one. True indeed that one cannot, today, employ these terms given their history. This much I accept. But in a cold, rational and philosophical discussion, and one for which there will be no consequence to me (i.e. getting branded, fired, hurt financially, etc.) I must insist that I do observe people and I am capable of noting the effect of good breeding. Pretty much it is as simple as that. My eyes are open and they see. It is very clear, and I say this from a 'civilization perspective' (I recognize this needs substantial definition) that if uncontrolled reproduction occurs at the lower levels and there is limited reproduction at the higher (better, 'superior') levels, that in time the lower element will overswamp the higher and with real consequences. I say this cooly and coldly because it appear --- with no doubt at all --- to be true. If it is a crime to see what I see, to understand what I understand, then I will need to accept the responsibility.

Therefor this statement: "...the fertility of the feeble-minded, the mentally defective, the poverty-stricken classes, should not be held up for emulation to the mentally and physically fit though less fertile parents of the educated and well-to-do classes. On the contrary, the most urgent problem today is how to limit and discourage the over-fertility of the mentally and physically defective", is not a morally-repugnant statement. It is a problematic statement, that much is certain, and for the obvious reasons.

Having offered this explanation, or this defense of you will, of eugenic principles, can you point out to me what about it is defective from your perspective?
Science Fan
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Re: Civil Rights

Post by Science Fan »

Gustav, the person who refuses to accept even basic science. The reason why eugenics is a pseudoscience is because genetic determinism does not exist. Let's say that Albert Einstein was born into a gang neighborhood, to parents who were drug addicts, and who encouraged Einstein to drop out of school and become a drug dealer? No one would have heard of Einstein in such a case, and a eugenicist would conclude that he had defective genes. However, this is perhaps the greatest scientist the world has ever produced, so his genes were hardly defective. (I'll ignore the propaganda lies that the Nazis spread about Einstein being a fake. You probably believe such lies, but outside of Jew-haters, no one else does.) The point is that genes only operate within a specific environment, and, unless all people are subjected to the same environment, one cannot conclude that the observed phenotypes are the result of genes only. The eugenics movement is a pseudoscience because it completely ignored how genes actually operate. Moreover, many people subjected to eugenics programs were later discovered to be quite normal, further adding to the evidence that eugenics is a pseudoscience.
Science Fan
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Re: Civil Rights

Post by Science Fan »

How many people did Clinton round up for being "deplorable"? Zero? How many people has Trump targeted, since being president, for merely exercising their rights to free speech? Far more than zero.
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Gustav Bjornstrand
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Re: Civil Rights

Post by Gustav Bjornstrand »

Science Fan wrote:Gustav, the person who refuses to accept even basic science. The reason why eugenics is a pseudoscience is because genetic determinism does not exist. Let's say that Albert Einstein was born into a gang neighborhood, to parents who were drug addicts, and who encouraged Einstein to drop out of school and become a drug dealer? No one would have heard of Einstein in such a case, and a eugenicist would conclude that he had defective genes. However, this is perhaps the greatest scientist the world has ever produced, so his genes were hardly defective. (I'll ignore the propaganda lies that the Nazis spread about Einstein being a fake. You probably believe such lies, but outside of Jew-haters, no one else does.) The point is that genes only operate within a specific environment, and, unless all people are subjected to the same environment, one cannot conclude that the observed phenotypes are the result of genes only. The eugenics movement is a pseudoscience because it completely ignored how genes actually operate. Moreover, many people subjected to eugenics programs were later discovered to be quite normal, further adding to the evidence that eugenics is a pseudoscience.
Try to notice, if you can, and try to modify your fallacious argumentation. I have noticed that you always start with it. You begin with a lie and a distortion, an intentional mis-statement: '...the person who refuses to accept even basic science'.

What I 'deny' is your ideological use of truth-claims, not science itself. The real issue here --- the person who has argument-problems and grammatical failures --- is you! If you are able to turn around and look back at yourself and how you are functioning you may see this.

What you are pointing to with your crude Einstein argument is that environment, random event, and the mutable universe come to bear on any one of us. Because my position is reasonable and based on sound structure, and I do not need to lie or distort what you say, or what anyone says, I have no problem conceding the environmental argument. I live in South America and I am directly involved in education-projects. I have time and again noted that when a person is given help --- resources, monetary assistance, moral support --- that if they are disposed to take advantage of it and not to squander it, they progress startlingly. The disadvantaged and the underprivileged are social resources that are not cultivated properly. In Colombia and Latin America these are many factors that contribute to dis-use. This can be talked about. But what more interests me when I talk to you is that you are a distorting liar. You and your argument would gain a great deal if you recognized and averted this. If you want to speak with others who come from different orientations and perspectives, do not assume the worst as a starting point.

I grew up in a Jewish family (though I did not have a Bar Mitzvah). I went to Jewish summer camps and spent my youth in a mixed context but one that was significantly culturally Jewish. I now define myself as a 'Johannine Christian' and I reject Judaism and certain aspects of Jewishness. I have written about this in up-front and honest terms (in this thread if I remember). I have no reason at all to doubt that Einstein was Jewish. Of course he was. If you wish to have a discussion about why it is that I think that Judaism has past its consume-by date, and if you are interested in knowing why I think that Jewishness as it often manifests itself within the Occident has destructive aspects, just let me know. You will get from me --- always --- genuine and sincere revelations and arguments. It is a very very unwholesome tendency that I notice when people deliberately distort what another says or believes, just to make an apparent gain.

When I use the term eugenics I am referring to the practice of good breeding. If the better stock of any species breeds or is bred with similarly good stock the breed improves. It is an simple as that. If the worst-endowed element breeds with the worst-endowed the result is dysgenic. It is, in abstract, as simple as that. Eugenics is also aesthetics (of a sort), and these are culturally-determined impositions of values.

How to relate to socially inferior orders, and how to manage them, is also a question worthy of thought. And the same is true of the echelons. I do not deny the problematic aspects of political or social choices.
Science Fan
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Re: Civil Rights

Post by Science Fan »

Gustav, it's not me that's a liar, you are. You are a racist who denies science, as all racists have to. You are against science, because science has made it quite clear that races do not exist in biology, and science has also refuted your silly claims about how DNA influences us. It's not how you racists claim. The fact you spend your time on social media 24/7, advocating for racist ideology when all of modern genetics has shown you are wrong, proves you dwell in pseudo-science, and have a phobia towards real science.

You just recently on here advocated for eugenics. I showed you exactly why eugenics is a pseudoscience, and what do you do? Claim that I'm lying about science? Hardly.
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Gustav Bjornstrand
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Re: Civil Rights

Post by Gustav Bjornstrand »

What I say is different, and I must believe that you simply cannot distinguish what it is you do and how you argue so abominably.

If as you say I am a racist who denies science, there is no lie in that. If one is a racist, one is a racist. That can be a truthful position. What you are saying is more similar to: 'Because you understand differently than I you are a liar'. That is fallacious. Narcissistic. People these days tend to 'hole-up' in ridiculous positions like yours I have noticed. It functions in many different areas.

If one 'denies science' that does not mean that one is dishonest either. It simply means that one denies science.

You can make any claim about my position that you want to and it will either function as a critique, or it won't. There is no need to lie about anything.

I do understand that, from your limited perspective and under the ideological constraints that seem to beset you, that you can arrive at no other conclusions but those you express. My view of you and your method is that you are deeply ensconced in an ideological position but imagine, with these 'science claims', that you are not. I have noticed this self-deception operating in other people in similar manner. What interests me is that they themselves cannot see what they are doing. And they seem 'possessed' by the mistake that has them firmly under its control. It is part-and-parcel of 'the disease of our age' and must be resisted and countered.

Here you have my interpretive effort and with that I leave you to your devices. have nothing more to contribute.
Science Fan
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Re: Civil Rights

Post by Science Fan »

Gustav, you couldn't be more wrong. The science I referenced is not soft science, like psychology, which makes claims that an intellectually honest person may have some valid concerns regarding. Instead, I have been referencing sciences like molecular biology, which are far more solid. By denying this type of science, you are the equivalent of a liar, because by denying this science you are denying the real facts before you. I'm not the one engaged in an ulterior agenda here, you are. I'm accepting reality. You, on the other hand, believe that an ideology can trump reality, which it can never do. There are just certain things an honest person cannot deny --- like basic physics, chemistry and molecular biology.
Walker
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Re: Civil Rights

Post by Walker »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:06 am
Walker wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:42 am Well, do you think that it’s possible for the media to violate civil rights? Or does your same answer apply, that you don’t live in a racist hellhole, for whatever relevance that is to the process of reasoning the data already presented.
The news media just reports news.
That’s the old world of ideals and textbooks.
You’re now living in Bizarro World.

CNN Caught Staging Fake News to Show Muslim Support After London Attacks?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb5PPnuu3bs
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: Civil Rights

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Walker wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:41 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:06 am
Walker wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:42 am Well, do you think that it’s possible for the media to violate civil rights? Or does your same answer apply, that you don’t live in a racist hellhole, for whatever relevance that is to the process of reasoning the data already presented.
The news media just reports news.
That’s the old world of ideals and textbooks.
You’re now living in Bizarro World.

CNN Caught Staging Fake News to Show Muslim Support After London Attacks?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb5PPnuu3bs
All I see in that video is a CNN camera crew getting some women with printed shit to stand somewhere they can have the Shard in the background because it's the south end of London Bridge and that's basically the only landmark in that neighbourhood.
What's the fake news thing here?
Walker
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Re: Civil Rights

Post by Walker »

It looks like they’re arranging a portrait of some bridal party. I did see some work by a wedding photographer who takes the photo-journalist approach. He shoots black and white and the only thing he arranges is his location to change what he sees in the viewfinder, rather than attempting to physically change the situation into a traditional pretty picture by moving people into poses. His work is pretty good. He captures the truth without posing the elements, by remaining a witness and not a participant, and that makes the work unique to the moment and the people. It’s the same ethical principle behind why a golfer calls a penalty on himself, or herself, for changing the ball position when removing fallen obstructions. You play the ball where it lies, and photo-journalists report reality as it appears. The alternative is propaganda.
Walker
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Re: Civil Rights

Post by Walker »

Gustav Bjornstrand wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2017 2:36 pm Having offered this explanation, or this defense of you will, of eugenic principles, can you point out to me what about it is defective from your perspective?
It's too arrogant, assumptive and plantation mentality for my liking.
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Gustav Bjornstrand
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Re: Civil Rights

Post by Gustav Bjornstrand »

That is a curious comment, Walker. 'Arrogant' implies a critique of attitude or bearing or manner of conduct. 'Assumptive' means one assumes what one shouldn't? (Therefor what you say is 'Don't assume anything'). And 'plantation mentality' implies that you associate good breeding (which is what it boils down to) with slave-cultivation?

I do understand of course what you are getting at, but I also notice that you have avoided the content of the propositions involved --- which are quite real --- for what seems to me to be a superficial reaction.
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