Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

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Greatest I am
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Re: Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

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ken wrote:[

What is the real "slavery problem" here exactly, that you say so many want to ignore? Could it be that you are just as much a slave to your own religions and governments as you say the "other" people are? When are you going to stop ignoring that fact?
You assume a lot.

The real slavery problem is quite apparent.

Muslim men can and do buy children for wives.

My situation is irrelevant to that fact except for the duty it imposes on me to end the practice.

Regards
DL
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Re: Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

Post by Greatest I am »

Belinda wrote:Hobbes Choice wrote:
All persons who submit to a religion willingly make themselves slaves.
But some religions free people from creeds. Unitarians and Quakers don't own creeds that they must believe.

Islam is one of the more authoritarian religions judging by the fact that a holy book is the word of Allah and therefore must be literally believed. I personally find it difficult to understand that a 'moderate' Muslim is nothing but a less faithful Muslim. I am hoping that Imams usually teach their flocks that the Koran is to be interpreted as true historically and not literally.

As for Muslim women wearing veils, I feel disappointed in any cleaving to wearing or publically acting religious symbols, which seems to me to be unnecessarily ostentatious, especially when there is sexism involved. However, let's remember that the sexism within Islam works to protect womens rights to property and rights to protection by male relatives in the extended family.

??

Protect the woman's rights to what?
Live as slaves and sell their female children to old men for wives?

If Muslim men are protecting women it is like a slave owner protecting his property, especially if he bought her for a high price.

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DL
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Re: Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

Post by Belinda »

Greatest I Am wrote:
Protect the woman's rights to what?
Live as slaves and sell their female children to old men for wives?

If Muslim men are protecting women it is like a slave owner protecting his property, especially if he bought her for a high price.
The Koran rules how widows , orphans, and the elderly are allocated to the protection of nearest male relatives. It also sets down and explains the spirit of women's property rights. Historically this was a tremendous advance on women's rights.

It is not Islamic to sell children for wives. Girls have to be past the age at which their menses have begun before they are allowed to have sex. It was once the practise of Christians to arrange child marriages. This custom was and is so that property can be secured for the family and not married out of the family or its allies.

Bride price is older and more widespread than Islam, and is part of the total economic structure of some societies.
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Re: Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

Post by Greatest I am »

Belinda wrote:
It is not Islamic to sell children for wives.
That is not true.

If that were true then we would not be having this discussion.

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DL
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Re: Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

Post by Belinda »

Greatest I Am :

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -pederasty

Hadith:

He will not enter Paradise who behaveth ill to his slaves. The Companions said, 'O Apostle of God! have you not told us, that there will be a great many slaves and orphans amongst your disciples?' He said, 'Yes; then be kind to them as to your own children, and give them to eat what you eat yourselves. The slaves that say their prayers are your brothers.
Be kind to slaves as to your own children...and those that say their prayers are your brethren.
They (slaves or servants) are your brothers, and Allah has put them under your command. So the one under whose hand Allah has put his brother, should feed him of what he eats, and give him dresses of what he wears, and should not ask him to do a thing beyond his capacity. And if at all he asks him to do a hard task, he should help him therein.'
'There are three categories of people against whom I shall myself be a plaintiff on the Day of Judgement. Of these three, one is he who enslaves a free man, then sells him and eats this money'.
al-Bukhari and Ibn Majjah
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Re: Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

Post by bobevenson »

Greatest I am wrote:Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?
How do you define a "free person"?
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Re: Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

Post by Greatest I am »

I did not see an answer to my question.

Then that is your style.

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DL
ken
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Re: Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

Post by ken »

Greatest I am wrote:
ken wrote:[

What is the real "slavery problem" here exactly, that you say so many want to ignore? Could it be that you are just as much a slave to your own religions and governments as you say the "other" people are? When are you going to stop ignoring that fact?
You assume a lot.
Where is the lot of assuming?

I asked you three questions here. The first question is asking you directly what you are referring to - no assumption at all being made. The second question is just a truly open-ended question, no assumption at all being made here also. I am just asking if you have even considered that you could be a slave also, like the "others" are that you refer to. The last question could be taken as an assumption, but it is not really because this question is directly in relation to the previous one. The last question is just asking when are you going to stop ignoring that fact. That 'fact' could be in relation to could you be just as much as a slave as "others" are, or, it that 'fact' could be in relation to you ignoring that fact.

You did not ask any clarifying questions back to Me, so really you are unsure what I was meaning.

Now, what are the actual assumption or assumption that you are assuming I am making?

I asked you when are you going to stop ignoring the fact that you, yourself, could also be a slave to religions and governments? If you have actually stopped, thought about the question openly and honestly, and then came to the resounding conclusion that you, yourself, are NOT a slave to religions and governments, then that this fine. If this is your response, then just show how you, yourself, are not a slave also?

I suggest you are a slave like muslim women are, and like all human beings are. Muslim women are not allowed out in public without certain clothing just like you are not allowed out in public without certain clothing. You are forced to cover some parts of the body, and if you do not, then you can be punished and ridiculed, which is the exact same thing that could happen to muslim women if they also do not cover up.
Greatest I am wrote:The real slavery problem is quite apparent.

Muslim men can and do buy children for wives.
Well if this is the real issue and slavery problem that you want us to be aware of, why then is this the first time you have mentioned this "quite apparent" problem? Why have you been going on about muslim women wearing particular clothing, and NOT discussing this issue?

Greatest I am wrote:My situation is irrelevant to that fact except for the duty it imposes on me to end the practice.

Regards
DL
The situation if you see yourself a slave or not is very relevant. The situation that you are also a part of the problem of creating future slaves is also relevant. If you can see how you yourself are also a slave or not influences how well you will be at preventing future slaves. But let Me guess, you do not want to look at anything you do wrong. You want all the focus to be on "others", am I right? You only want to look at and discuss the wrong "others" do, and not what you, yourself, do, right?

If you truly want to fix the 'problem', then find out WHY the "problem" occurs. Find out WHY you do wrong, and right, first, then you will know how and why all human beings do wrong, and right, also. You can only prevent some thing from happening again once you know what caused it, or WHY it happened, in the first place. The reason the "real slavery problem" occurs is the same reason all human beings are a slave to religions and governments. Human beings are taught, mostly through fear and punishment, to think and believe, in certain ways and in certain things. Just like you do.

You are no better, nor worse, than another. You just do different wrong and right.

If you looked at the wrong you, yourself, do first, and discovered WHY you do that, then you will find out WHY all human beings do what they do, and then you can and will be able to end once and for all those truly wrong practices that ALL human beings do, which will inevitably truly help the "others" that you so obviously would like to help. Preventing, and thus stopping, ALL the wrong that ALL human beings do I think would be much better than just trying to stop the wrong "others" do.

By the way not only muslim men buy children for wives.
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Re: Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

Post by Belinda »

Islam has problems about how Muhammad is regarded. It's okay to regard Jesus as a paradigm of virtue as for all we know he did no violence to anyone. Muhammad should not be worshipped as a perfect man. I wonder of any Islam leader is working on the problem of idolatry of Muhammad. It's a pity that Muslims don't have a pope to do some authoritative intellectual leadership on their behalf.

Muhammad's advice to Muslims about killing infidels and apostates was okay when Muhammad was a bona fide warlord. But that bit of Muhammad's advice should now be moderated out of the Koran.

It is remarkable how nice most ordinary Muslims are in view of the official idolatry of Muhammad. We must suppose that ordinary decent people have a lot in common with each other.

I wonder if the marked tendency for the poorer less educated Muslims to fail to integrate with 'infidel' societies is due to officially- sanctioned idolatry of Muhammad.
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Re: Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

Post by Greatest I am »

ken wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
ken wrote:[

What is the real "slavery problem" here exactly, that you say so many want to ignore? Could it be that you are just as much a slave to your own religions and governments as you say the "other" people are? When are you going to stop ignoring that fact?
You assume a lot.
Where is the lot of assuming?

I asked you three questions here. The first question is asking you directly what you are referring to - no assumption at all being made. The second question is just a truly open-ended question, no assumption at all being made here also. I am just asking if you have even considered that you could be a slave also, like the "others" are that you refer to. The last question could be taken as an assumption, but it is not really because this question is directly in relation to the previous one. The last question is just asking when are you going to stop ignoring that fact. That 'fact' could be in relation to could you be just as much as a slave as "others" are, or, it that 'fact' could be in relation to you ignoring that fact.

You did not ask any clarifying questions back to Me, so really you are unsure what I was meaning.

Now, what are the actual assumption or assumption that you are assuming I am making?

I asked you when are you going to stop ignoring the fact that you, yourself, could also be a slave to religions and governments? If you have actually stopped, thought about the question openly and honestly, and then came to the resounding conclusion that you, yourself, are NOT a slave to religions and governments, then that this fine. If this is your response, then just show how you, yourself, are not a slave also?

I suggest you are a slave like muslim women are, and like all human beings are. Muslim women are not allowed out in public without certain clothing just like you are not allowed out in public without certain clothing. You are forced to cover some parts of the body, and if you do not, then you can be punished and ridiculed, which is the exact same thing that could happen to muslim women if they also do not cover up.
Greatest I am wrote:The real slavery problem is quite apparent.

Muslim men can and do buy children for wives.
Well if this is the real issue and slavery problem that you want us to be aware of, why then is this the first time you have mentioned this "quite apparent" problem? Why have you been going on about muslim women wearing particular clothing, and NOT discussing this issue?

Greatest I am wrote:My situation is irrelevant to that fact except for the duty it imposes on me to end the practice.

Regards
DL
The situation if you see yourself a slave or not is very relevant. The situation that you are also a part of the problem of creating future slaves is also relevant. If you can see how you yourself are also a slave or not influences how well you will be at preventing future slaves. But let Me guess, you do not want to look at anything you do wrong. You want all the focus to be on "others", am I right? You only want to look at and discuss the wrong "others" do, and not what you, yourself, do, right?

If you truly want to fix the 'problem', then find out WHY the "problem" occurs. Find out WHY you do wrong, and right, first, then you will know how and why all human beings do wrong, and right, also. You can only prevent some thing from happening again once you know what caused it, or WHY it happened, in the first place. The reason the "real slavery problem" occurs is the same reason all human beings are a slave to religions and governments. Human beings are taught, mostly through fear and punishment, to think and believe, in certain ways and in certain things. Just like you do.

You are no better, nor worse, than another. You just do different wrong and right.

If you looked at the wrong you, yourself, do first, and discovered WHY you do that, then you will find out WHY all human beings do what they do, and then you can and will be able to end once and for all those truly wrong practices that ALL human beings do, which will inevitably truly help the "others" that you so obviously would like to help. Preventing, and thus stopping, ALL the wrong that ALL human beings do I think would be much better than just trying to stop the wrong "others" do.

By the way not only muslim men buy children for wives.
I spoke of children being bought in the O.P. Perhaps you missed it.

As to the overall theme you wish to follow, sure, we are all slaved to our systems and to each other in ways people likely do not recognize.

My beef is that Muslim men make themselves the higher slaves while forcing their women to be the lesser slaves.

Law basically determines who is abused or not and Muslim law does not include equality for women and that obviously makes them second class.

Why does the problem exist you ask.

Because for that evil to grow and sustain itself, all free people need do is forget that their first duty is to free all slaves.

Regards
DL
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Re: Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

Post by Greatest I am »

Belinda wrote:Islam has problems about how Muhammad is regarded. It's okay to regard Jesus as a paradigm of virtue as for all we know he did no violence to anyone. Muhammad should not be worshipped as a perfect man. I wonder of any Islam leader is working on the problem of idolatry of Muhammad. It's a pity that Muslims don't have a pope to do some authoritative intellectual leadership on their behalf.

Muhammad's advice to Muslims about killing infidels and apostates was okay when Muhammad was a bona fide warlord. But that bit of Muhammad's advice should now be moderated out of the Koran.

It is remarkable how nice most ordinary Muslims are in view of the official idolatry of Muhammad. We must suppose that ordinary decent people have a lot in common with each other.

I wonder if the marked tendency for the poorer less educated Muslims to fail to integrate with 'infidel' societies is due to officially- sanctioned idolatry of Muhammad.
It is hard to live with and love your new neighbors when you are supposed to kill then as Islam advises.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9bEkGd1AVo

Regards
DL
ken
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Re: Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

Post by ken »

Greatest I am wrote:
ken wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
You assume a lot.
Where is the lot of assuming?

I asked you three questions here. The first question is asking you directly what you are referring to - no assumption at all being made. The second question is just a truly open-ended question, no assumption at all being made here also. I am just asking if you have even considered that you could be a slave also, like the "others" are that you refer to. The last question could be taken as an assumption, but it is not really because this question is directly in relation to the previous one. The last question is just asking when are you going to stop ignoring that fact. That 'fact' could be in relation to could you be just as much as a slave as "others" are, or, it that 'fact' could be in relation to you ignoring that fact.

You did not ask any clarifying questions back to Me, so really you are unsure what I was meaning.

Now, what are the actual assumption or assumption that you are assuming I am making?

I asked you when are you going to stop ignoring the fact that you, yourself, could also be a slave to religions and governments? If you have actually stopped, thought about the question openly and honestly, and then came to the resounding conclusion that you, yourself, are NOT a slave to religions and governments, then that this fine. If this is your response, then just show how you, yourself, are not a slave also?

I suggest you are a slave like muslim women are, and like all human beings are. Muslim women are not allowed out in public without certain clothing just like you are not allowed out in public without certain clothing. You are forced to cover some parts of the body, and if you do not, then you can be punished and ridiculed, which is the exact same thing that could happen to muslim women if they also do not cover up.
Greatest I am wrote:The real slavery problem is quite apparent.

Muslim men can and do buy children for wives.
Well if this is the real issue and slavery problem that you want us to be aware of, why then is this the first time you have mentioned this "quite apparent" problem? Why have you been going on about muslim women wearing particular clothing, and NOT discussing this issue?

Greatest I am wrote:My situation is irrelevant to that fact except for the duty it imposes on me to end the practice.

Regards
DL
The situation if you see yourself a slave or not is very relevant. The situation that you are also a part of the problem of creating future slaves is also relevant. If you can see how you yourself are also a slave or not influences how well you will be at preventing future slaves. But let Me guess, you do not want to look at anything you do wrong. You want all the focus to be on "others", am I right? You only want to look at and discuss the wrong "others" do, and not what you, yourself, do, right?

If you truly want to fix the 'problem', then find out WHY the "problem" occurs. Find out WHY you do wrong, and right, first, then you will know how and why all human beings do wrong, and right, also. You can only prevent some thing from happening again once you know what caused it, or WHY it happened, in the first place. The reason the "real slavery problem" occurs is the same reason all human beings are a slave to religions and governments. Human beings are taught, mostly through fear and punishment, to think and believe, in certain ways and in certain things. Just like you do.

You are no better, nor worse, than another. You just do different wrong and right.

If you looked at the wrong you, yourself, do first, and discovered WHY you do that, then you will find out WHY all human beings do what they do, and then you can and will be able to end once and for all those truly wrong practices that ALL human beings do, which will inevitably truly help the "others" that you so obviously would like to help. Preventing, and thus stopping, ALL the wrong that ALL human beings do I think would be much better than just trying to stop the wrong "others" do.

By the way not only muslim men buy children for wives.
I spoke of children being bought in the O.P. Perhaps you missed it.
Yes I did miss it, My apologies. I was focused on the clothing issue to show how we are all slaves to societies, cultures, religions, and governments.
Greatest I am wrote:As to the overall theme you wish to follow, sure, we are all slaved to our systems and to each other in ways people likely do not recognize.
So you can now recognize it, but will still instantly ignore, going by your next few remarks.
Greatest I am wrote:My beef is that Muslim men make themselves the higher slaves while forcing their women to be the lesser slaves.
And you do not think this, or may be you do not see nor recognise this, from christian men also, or if truth be known from men in general.

Ask the general populace of women, in most if not all societies, if they feel forced in one way or another to be slaves to the men.

I am sure in any society, western or not, a fair amount of women will remark how they are left to feel that they are the lesser citizens in the society.

Also, it is great to see that I was exactly right about you wanting to look at "others" and not look at yourself. Did you bypass this issue purposely, or unintentionally you wanted to side-step it and did not even consciously take it in?
Greatest I am wrote:Law basically determines who is abused or not and Muslim law does not include equality for women and that obviously makes them second class.
Ask many abused women in any society how they feel the law leaves them feeling. I think you might find that you came away with a resounding response that the law leaves abused women feeling not included equally, and that they feel second class citizens a lot of the time.
Greatest I am wrote:Why does the problem exist you ask.
No, I was not asking. I was telling you HOW you can find out WHY the problem exists and WHY it will keep existing.
Greatest I am wrote:Because for that evil to grow and sustain itself, all free people need do is forget that their first duty is to free all slaves.

Regards
DL
You highlight My point beautifully here how you say 'We are all slaved to the systems' BUT then you will instantly ignore this fact and write, 'All free people'. Either we are ALL slaved to "systems" or there are some actual "free" people. Now which one is it going to be? It can NOT be both.

You have missed, lost, looked over, or not recognised at all what I have been saying, and the whole point I have been making here, and that is if YOU were brought up in "another system", like a muslim one for example, then YOU would be doing the exact same thing, as you are now saying we should be stopping. YOU would be a slave to "that system" just like you are a slave to "the system" that you are a slave to now.

I even made the point very clear, I thought, about HOW you want to look at "others" and the wrong they do, and NOT look at yourself and the wrong YOU do. This just shows HOW much of a slave you are to "your system" and the wrong you and this system does, and how much you are not even aware of any of this. You are blinded by your own slavery. You are NOT a free person, yet, to be able to even begin to free others. You NEED to free and help yourself before you can begin to free and help others.

For a truly free person to be able to help and free ALL others, then that person needs to learn how to communicate in such a way that not just shows ALL people how they can free themselves, but that needs to be communicated in a way that does not show any judgement nor ridicule in any whatsoever. A truly free person is NOT above another. They are also tied down, in a way, until ALL are free with them.
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Re: Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

Post by Greatest I am »

ken wrote:[

You have missed, lost, looked over, or not recognised at all what I have been saying, .
That is because you want to write a book while I am into paragraphs.

Focus and lose 4/5 of the useless wording and commentary.

Regards
DL
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