Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

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Greatest I am
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Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

Post by Greatest I am »

Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

In the more right wing of Islam, females are what I would call slaves. I am prompted to think in that term because if I were a Muslim man living under Sharia, I can buy myself a few child brides. There is also little stopping me from doing the same, --- where Muslims live under Sharia law, --- in new adopted countries in the free world. Slavery returns to the West.

Fraternité, if I may remind the English speakers, means a fiduciary relationship to all other people. Slave is appropriate here. Fraternité and honesty also forces that I must look at Muslim females as slaves.

Do I, as a free man, have any responsibility to free these Muslim women, who inadvertently help propagate slavery by their lack of revolt against it?

The West also helps propagate slavery by allowing it into the West.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtY5bv-oxLE

If I, as a free man hold a responsibility, as a free person, do you?

How much tolerance should tolerant nations give to a huge slave trading religion and government system?

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DL
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Re: Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

The 13th amendment to the US Constitution:

"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

So for the US, the answer is no. In the Arab countries, it doesn't matter what I think since in fact slavery may exist.

PhilX
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Re: Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

Post by Greatest I am »

Philosophy Explorer wrote:The 13th amendment to the US Constitution:

"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

So for the US, the answer is no. In the Arab countries, it doesn't matter what I think since in fact slavery may exist.

PhilX
There are slaves, as we speak, as I described them, at present in the U.S.

They are recognizable by their veils, --- although some owners have removed the order to veil up.

How have you failed to see them?

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DL
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Re: Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

Greatest I am wrote:
Philosophy Explorer wrote:The 13th amendment to the US Constitution:

"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

So for the US, the answer is no. In the Arab countries, it doesn't matter what I think since in fact slavery may exist.

PhilX
There are slaves, as we speak, as I described them, at present in the U.S.

They are recognizable by their veils, --- although some owners have removed the order to veil up.

How have you failed to see them?

Regards
DL
Slavery is outlawed here. And there are women who wear veils that aren't slaves. So I don't see the point to your question.

PhilX
ken
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Re: Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

Post by ken »

Greatest I am wrote:
There are slaves, as we speak, as I described them, at present in the U.S.

They are recognizable by their veils, --- although some owners have removed the order to veil up.

How have you failed to see them?

Regards
DL
If you recognize slavery by the enforcement of wearing cloth, then have you failed to see that you yourself are also a slave? Can you walk around in true freedom or are you also forced to cover up and follower orders?
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Re: Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

Greatest I am wrote:Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?
DL
All persons who submit to a religion willingly make themselves slaves.
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Re: Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

Post by Greatest I am »

Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
Philosophy Explorer wrote:The 13th amendment to the US Constitution:

"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

So for the US, the answer is no. In the Arab countries, it doesn't matter what I think since in fact slavery may exist.

PhilX
There are slaves, as we speak, as I described them, at present in the U.S.

They are recognizable by their veils, --- although some owners have removed the order to veil up.

How have you failed to see them?

Regards
DL
Slavery is outlawed here. And there are women who wear veils that aren't slaves. So I don't see the point to your question.

PhilX
You would not if you will not recognize that people who are bought and sold and whose freedom is denied by force are slaves.

I see that as people putting their heads in the sand.

Regards
DL
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Re: Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

Post by Greatest I am »

ken wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
There are slaves, as we speak, as I described them, at present in the U.S.

They are recognizable by their veils, --- although some owners have removed the order to veil up.

How have you failed to see them?

Regards
DL
If you recognize slavery by the enforcement of wearing cloth, then have you failed to see that you yourself are also a slave? Can you walk around in true freedom or are you also forced to cover up and follower orders?
I recognize that we are all slaved to our systems.

Since we are all slaves, do you think it moral for Muslim men to make second class slaves for themselves?

Why should the men all be house slaves and women the field slaves?

Regards
DL
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Re: Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

Post by Greatest I am »

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?
DL
All persons who submit to a religion willingly make themselves slaves.
I can agree with this.

That would also apply to whatever government system you buy into. Right?

I wonder how willingly most Muslim women are remaining in Islam when Sharia and Islam allow the honor killing of those women who will not kowtow to their male masters.

Regards
DL
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Re: Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

Greatest I am wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?
DL
All persons who submit to a religion willingly make themselves slaves.
I can agree with this.

That would also apply to whatever government system you buy into. Right?

I wonder how willingly most Muslim women are remaining in Islam when Sharia and Islam allow the honor killing of those women who will not kowtow to their male masters.

Regards
DL
You asked a "free person". How many people are free and in what way?
If you are born into a theocracy, you are a slave.
ken
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Re: Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

Post by ken »

Greatest I am wrote:
ken wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
There are slaves, as we speak, as I described them, at present in the U.S.

They are recognizable by their veils, --- although some owners have removed the order to veil up.

How have you failed to see them?

Regards
DL
If you recognize slavery by the enforcement of wearing cloth, then have you failed to see that you yourself are also a slave? Can you walk around in true freedom or are you also forced to cover up and follower orders?
I recognize that we are all slaved to our systems.
Great you can recognize that. Now what are we going to do about it? You are part of that system that allows some to enforce others and forces others to follow that system. Remember the 'system' is not some separate entity. Human beings make that system, which you are a contributor to. You appear to be implying that systems that enslave others is not right, so what will you do to change the system that enslaves people and which you, yourself, follow?
Greatest I am wrote:Since we are all slaves, do you think it moral for Muslim men to make second class slaves for themselves?
No one really cares what I think, but if the truth be known I think it is immoral that ALL adult human beings force children to grow up with ideologies, and worse still to believe in ideologies.

If "muslim" men make second class slaves for themselves, then that is because they were taught to believe in the system in which they were brought up in. Which is EXACTLY what you are doing right now. This is clearly shown by your judgemental view of "others", who follow other systems, and who do not believe in and follow the exact same system that you believe in and follow.

Do you realize that a person, like you, who has very strong judgemenat views of "others", of "other" systems, and of those "other" ways of living, are the ones who most likely would have the strongest views for the "other side" if they, themselves, were brought up in and taught to believe in and follow those systems.
Greatest I am wrote:Why should the men all be house slaves and women the field slaves?

Regards
DL
Not sure what is really being referred to here. But if it is suggesting woman are third class slaves, who are after men who are second class slaves, who are after the ones who control and enforce the system, then may I remind you that women in all cultures, all religions, and all systems complain of being second after men. Obviously it is not just a "muslim", and just as obviuos is it should NEVER be this way. Of course it would be better if EVERYONE stand on an equal level and playing field, but while people continue to be judgemental of others nothing is going to change. Judging, itself, is what put "others" into different classes.

How to actually change the "system", and make things much better, is to find out WHY human beings do what they do. Why this can actually cause change is because only when you know WHY some thing happens, can you then prevent it from happening again.The best way to find out why people do what they do, is to look at one's self does, instead of looking at what others do. If you really want to know WHY "muslim" men, or any person for that matter, makes others second or third class citizens or slaves, then you will look into WHY you do it yourself. A clue to help you along is to look deeper into your judgemental views.

Categorizing people into separate groups is what allows the "system", thus people, to enslave people.
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Re: Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

Post by Greatest I am »

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
All persons who submit to a religion willingly make themselves slaves.
I can agree with this.

That would also apply to whatever government system you buy into. Right?

I wonder how willingly most Muslim women are remaining in Islam when Sharia and Islam allow the honor killing of those women who will not kowtow to their male masters.

Regards
DL
You asked a "free person". How many people are free and in what way?
If you are born into a theocracy, you are a slave.
True. But I am interested in what free people see as their duty in terms of freeing a huge part of our world population who live in slavery.

Freedom is a thing that most of us can never attain. Liberty is the best most of us will ever find.

We are born dependent on others and our whole life is centered on that dependence and that is why we can never really be free.

As Socrates said of such individual freedom matters; who will make your shoes.

We are all free, of course, to ignore our conditioning, instincts and needs and go die alone if we so choose.

Regards
DL
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Re: Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

Post by Greatest I am »

ken wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
ken wrote:
If you recognize slavery by the enforcement of wearing cloth, then have you failed to see that you yourself are also a slave? Can you walk around in true freedom or are you also forced to cover up and follower orders?
I recognize that we are all slaved to our systems.
Great you can recognize that. Now what are we going to do about it? You are part of that system that allows some to enforce others and forces others to follow that system. Remember the 'system' is not some separate entity. Human beings make that system, which you are a contributor to. You appear to be implying that systems that enslave others is not right, so what will you do to change the system that enslaves people and which you, yourself, follow?
Greatest I am wrote:Since we are all slaves, do you think it moral for Muslim men to make second class slaves for themselves?
No one really cares what I think, but if the truth be known I think it is immoral that ALL adult human beings force children to grow up with ideologies, and worse still to believe in ideologies.

If "muslim" men make second class slaves for themselves, then that is because they were taught to believe in the system in which they were brought up in. Which is EXACTLY what you are doing right now. This is clearly shown by your judgemental view of "others", who follow other systems, and who do not believe in and follow the exact same system that you believe in and follow.

Do you realize that a person, like you, who has very strong judgemenat views of "others", of "other" systems, and of those "other" ways of living, are the ones who most likely would have the strongest views for the "other side" if they, themselves, were brought up in and taught to believe in and follow those systems.
Greatest I am wrote:Why should the men all be house slaves and women the field slaves?

Regards
DL
Not sure what is really being referred to here. But if it is suggesting woman are third class slaves, who are after men who are second class slaves, who are after the ones who control and enforce the system, then may I remind you that women in all cultures, all religions, and all systems complain of being second after men. Obviously it is not just a "muslim", and just as obviuos is it should NEVER be this way. Of course it would be better if EVERYONE stand on an equal level and playing field, but while people continue to be judgemental of others nothing is going to change. Judging, itself, is what put "others" into different classes.

How to actually change the "system", and make things much better, is to find out WHY human beings do what they do. Why this can actually cause change is because only when you know WHY some thing happens, can you then prevent it from happening again.The best way to find out why people do what they do, is to look at one's self does, instead of looking at what others do. If you really want to know WHY "muslim" men, or any person for that matter, makes others second or third class citizens or slaves, then you will look into WHY you do it yourself. A clue to help you along is to look deeper into your judgemental views.

Categorizing people into separate groups is what allows the "system", thus people, to enslave people.
All we have are separate groups who take different labels.

As to judging, do you not judge many things daily? We all do.

So why would you restrict the judging of morals and ethics since they are so important to us that all religions and governments ask us to choose the good over the evil and try hard to reach us morals?

As to what I am doing to try to reduce the slavery problem; I just point out the real situation in the world that so many want to ignore.

Regards
DL
ken
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Re: Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

Post by ken »

Greatest I am wrote:
ken wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
I recognize that we are all slaved to our systems.
Great you can recognize that. Now what are we going to do about it? You are part of that system that allows some to enforce others and forces others to follow that system. Remember the 'system' is not some separate entity. Human beings make that system, which you are a contributor to. You appear to be implying that systems that enslave others is not right, so what will you do to change the system that enslaves people and which you, yourself, follow?
Greatest I am wrote:Since we are all slaves, do you think it moral for Muslim men to make second class slaves for themselves?
No one really cares what I think, but if the truth be known I think it is immoral that ALL adult human beings force children to grow up with ideologies, and worse still to believe in ideologies.

If "muslim" men make second class slaves for themselves, then that is because they were taught to believe in the system in which they were brought up in. Which is EXACTLY what you are doing right now. This is clearly shown by your judgemental view of "others", who follow other systems, and who do not believe in and follow the exact same system that you believe in and follow.

Do you realize that a person, like you, who has very strong judgemenat views of "others", of "other" systems, and of those "other" ways of living, are the ones who most likely would have the strongest views for the "other side" if they, themselves, were brought up in and taught to believe in and follow those systems.
Greatest I am wrote:Why should the men all be house slaves and women the field slaves?

Regards
DL
Not sure what is really being referred to here. But if it is suggesting woman are third class slaves, who are after men who are second class slaves, who are after the ones who control and enforce the system, then may I remind you that women in all cultures, all religions, and all systems complain of being second after men. Obviously it is not just a "muslim", and just as obviuos is it should NEVER be this way. Of course it would be better if EVERYONE stand on an equal level and playing field, but while people continue to be judgemental of others nothing is going to change. Judging, itself, is what put "others" into different classes.

How to actually change the "system", and make things much better, is to find out WHY human beings do what they do. Why this can actually cause change is because only when you know WHY some thing happens, can you then prevent it from happening again.The best way to find out why people do what they do, is to look at one's self does, instead of looking at what others do. If you really want to know WHY "muslim" men, or any person for that matter, makes others second or third class citizens or slaves, then you will look into WHY you do it yourself. A clue to help you along is to look deeper into your judgemental views.

Categorizing people into separate groups is what allows the "system", thus people, to enslave people.
All we have are separate groups who take different labels.
I do not TAKE different labels. You, however, are free to GIVE separate labels, if you so choose.

I also do not see separate groups. What I do see, however, is people trying to separate things into groups and try to give those groups labels. I also see these people stumble and fall when I question them about where is and what is the actual distinctions between the two separate groups that they are TRYING to make and label.
Greatest I am wrote:As to judging, do you not judge many things daily? We all do.
Please do not try to speak for Me. I certainly do NOT judge many things daily. In fact I rarely judge any thing, ever.
Greatest I am wrote:So why would you restrict the judging of morals and ethics since they are so important to us that all religions and governments ask us to choose the good over the evil and try hard to reach us morals?
I "restrict" judging because there is NO need for it. I also know WHY every person does what they do, so there is NO reason to judge at all anyway. Making judgments of moral and ethics is NOT so important to Me. I, especially, do NOT care one iota if all religions and governments ask human beings to choose the good over the evil and try hard to teach them morals. I, for one, do NOT listen nor follow religions and governments. If you do, then you will end up lost and confused, as is being shown right here and now.

Just curios, have you ever noticed that no two religions and/or governments have ever really come to an actual agreement of what is actually good or evil? We are back to the beginning of you are "making judgments" based only on your own upbringing. If you were brought up in "another" culture, religion and government, then you would be making "opposite" judgments. For example, if you were brought up in and as such became a muslim man would you have the same views about muslim woman now?
Greatest I am wrote:As to what I am doing to try to reduce the slavery problem; I just point out the real situation in the world that so many want to ignore.

Regards
DL
What is the real "slavery problem" here exactly, that you say so many want to ignore? Could it be that you are just as much a slave to your own religions and governments as you say the "other" people are? When are you going to stop ignoring that fact?
Belinda
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Re: Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

Post by Belinda »

Hobbes Choice wrote:
All persons who submit to a religion willingly make themselves slaves.
But some religions free people from creeds. Unitarians and Quakers don't own creeds that they must believe.

Islam is one of the more authoritarian religions judging by the fact that a holy book is the word of Allah and therefore must be literally believed. I personally find it difficult to understand that a 'moderate' Muslim is nothing but a less faithful Muslim. I am hoping that Imams usually teach their flocks that the Koran is to be interpreted as true historically and not literally.

As for Muslim women wearing veils, I feel disappointed in any cleaving to wearing or publically acting religious symbols, which seems to me to be unnecessarily ostentatious, especially when there is sexism involved. However, let's remember that the sexism within Islam works to protect womens rights to property and rights to protection by male relatives in the extended family.
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