Muslims say; religious freedom for me, but not for thee.

[Belinda]

... It is over-stretching the definition of 'Muslim' to claim that an islamic terrorist is a Muslim.

Tell them that.

Whilst I think my British Muslim neighbours are law-abiding citizens, in fact more than most, but I think you underestimate what Muhammad did when he realised his peaceful message was getting him nowhere.

As I wrote, I do hope that imams are teaching that Muhammad the warrior was historical and a man from a more brutal civilisation . Muhammad did a lot to civilise Arabia as it had been. The spirit of Muhammad remains as the impetus towards justice and compassion.

If you were to compare the basis of Islam with the basis of Christianity by claiming that a holy book is inflexible compared with the life of a man i.e. Jesus, then I'd agree that Christianity is better, as more agreeable to changing demands of the age.

[Belinda]

Belinda,

You want me to justify...

...no permits in L.A.?

...or...

...my having a shotgun?

meh

Not seein' any need to justify either.

I have it and I'll not give it up.

Henry, I think you actually are a character in a comic book.

[ForCruxSake]

If you were to compare the basis of Islam with the basis of Christianity by claiming that a holy book is inflexible compared with the life of a man i.e. Jesus, then I'd agree that Christianity is better, as more agreeable to changing demands of the age.

When did this become a pissing contest between religions?!!

There were more wars in the 20th century, globally and as as a result of emerging capitalistic imperialism, than in several centuries combined, preceding it! Why we even talk about religion when it is the political circumstances in the Middle East, Africa and Asia that have fomented hatred on the part of some Muslim nations, and consequently radicalised Muslims, is beyond me!

It's all political. If this is the case then Islam seems to be a religion for some, and a political movement for others. How ever radicalised Islamic nutters may see themselves, and however they bend and spout religious text to back themselves up, what they are dong is political, not religious.

The capitalists in the West who have caused all these problems were, and are, either right-wing, nutters with a hard on for Christ, or denatured Christians and Jews, who now find themselves secular. That's about as religious as I can see the picture being. It's all political with people fooled into thinking it's about religion.

Anyone, greedy enough to dispossess others will create enemies. The continued disenfranchisement of the rest of the world by the West will halt when the system finally collapses. I think, ironically, this is when people really will fall back on religion as their source of comfort... and there will be no religion that ""is better, or more agreeable" than any other to do that.

[henry quirk]

"If your fellow free men and country chose to act, you would not want for resources to do the job."

Agreed.

#

"The West, generally speaking, is pushing the Muslim ideology back towards the East but not enough or hard enough for my taste when I look at all the damage Islam is doing around the world."

Agreed.

#

"Your somewhat balanced methods should be used but I do not think we should relent till all share the freedom we do."

Agreed.


My point, up-thread, is simply my recognizing my limits, nuthin' more.

Absolutely, the U.S. should and can take the lead in containing Islamic Statists (which is simply gettin' them to mind their own business), but we probsbly won't cuz --at the moment -- America is full-to-overflowing with pussies and appeasers.

That's what eight years of having a pussy appeaser in the oval office netted us.

[henry quirk]

Well, that the first time I heard that.

[Arising_uk]

...

Absolutely, the U.S. should and can take the lead in containing Islamic Statists (which is simply gettin' them to mind their own business), but we probsbly won't cuz --at the moment -- America is full-to-overflowing with pussies and appeasers. ...

Eh!? This is their business, what business is it of the US's? Let alone that the US pretty much caused this situation by making it their business in the first place.

That's what eight years of having a pussy appeaser in the oval office netted us.

Please! Obama was just as warlike and interfering and he was only doing what Bush agreed to in the first place.

[Arising_uk]

As I wrote, I do hope that imams are teaching that Muhammad the warrior was historical and a man from a more brutal civilisation . Muhammad did a lot to civilise Arabia as it had been. The spirit of Muhammad remains as the impetus towards justice and compassion. ...

For Muslims and in the end and just like the Christianity it came from aims for all under their religion.

If you were to compare the basis of Islam with the basis of Christianity by claiming that a holy book is inflexible compared with the life of a man i.e. Jesus, then I'd agree that Christianity is better, as more agreeable to changing demands of the age.

I.e. we can ignore it and become secular or even atheists but this is not something the Bible-bashers want anymore than the Koran tub-thumpers.

[henry quirk]

"Eh!? This is their business, what business is it of the US's? Let alone that the US pretty much caused this situation by making it their business in the first place."

Yes, I know, America is the bad guy...fine...we fucked things up by bein' buttinskys...great...seems to me (small, halting) efforts are bein' made to disentangle ourselves from these messes.

And, of course, our bein' utter shits is no excuse for Islamic Statists bein' allowed to gain a foothold 'here'. Sharia can suck it.

#

"Please! Obama was just as warlike and interfering and he was only doing what Bush agreed to in the first place."

Gimme a break...under O Islamic Statism has flourished. Right now, today, the strongholds and all the personnel of the IS could be reduced to rubble and body parts. The annoying mosquito could be flyswattered and we'd be talkin' about sumthin' else. Instead, we concede and acquiesce and accommodate. Whatever violence O signed off on was for show and nuthin' else.

[Greatest I am]

No. Most Muslims who live and work in the UK are eminently respectable and hard working and pay their taxes and despise terrorism as much or more than atheists.

I see that you have not watched much in the way of news about Muslims coming out of the U.K..

Shall I link you to information on how Muslims are protesting to be able to use Sharia law and how they are creating no-go zones all over the U.K..

Regards
DL

And shall I link you to the majority of law abiding British Muslims, who are NOT protesting to use Sharia law and just going about their business being good citizens? Just because a minority of hardliners want Sharia law, they do not speak for the majority who are just going about their daily routine of being decent and happy British citizens. Seems to me the only Muslims you seem to know are those you detect ONLINE. Do you actually know any real Muslims? I don't care how many links you show me, I can testify to KNOWING many more Muslims, IN MY REAL LIFE, than your links can direct me to, who are just average citizens, with little to shout about other than the racism of constantly being told who they are, and how they think, or should think, by both misguided white people and fanatical Muslims.

As to "no go zones", in the British press, which we know is part of the problem for creating mass hysteria and escalation of all things "Muslim" or "terrorism" related, the mention of "no go zones" refers to the fact the police are not being called into communities with regard to crime. The communities are policing themselves. It's not that they are areas where people need to be afraid to go. It's more indicative of the fact that Muslims can be so law abiding they police themselves. It's no surprise. Our police force is not what it once was. Constant cuts and a decline in the quality of recruits is affecting it's performance.

If the self-policing oversteps the line, the police would soon step in. So far, they choose to remain aside as they claim they "can't get involved if no-one calls them for assistance". In current times, who can blame Muslims for not trusting the institutions and wanting to be left alone.

Your 'common or garden' Muslim is not someone to whom you would see links online.

Governments have police. Islam does not need it's own, and if Sharia is what Muslims are using as a guide, it is an inferior system as they do not believe in equality and always give Muslim women slaves the short end of the stick.

Equality before the law is the cornerstone of all good law and Islam and Sharia do not believe in equality.

Regards
DL

[Arising_uk]

Yes, I know, America is the bad guy...fine...we fucked things up by bein' buttinskys...great...seems to me (small, halting) efforts are bein' made to disentangle ourselves from these messes. ...

Not saying you're the 'bad guy' just that according to your rules it wasn't your business.

And, of course, our bein' utter shits is no excuse for Islamic Statists bein' allowed to gain a foothold 'here'. Sharia can suck it. ...

I thought your states are pretty much allowed to do as they wish with respect to laws and have religious freedom to do so if they wish?

Gimme a break...under O Islamic Statism has flourished. ...

No you give me a break as it was under the Bushes this sectarian disaster was conceived(despite warnings from the UK and anti-Saddam Iraqis) and under the Republicans that Islamic fundamentalism thrived in the first place, not least due to CIA funding and training to fight the Russians.

Here's a cracker, when you first invaded Iraqi under the aegis of saving Kuwait there was a close vote and it was swayed by the testimony of a girl and doctor who said that the Iraqi army was stealing incubators and leaving dead babies on the floor. Turns out that she was from the Kuwaiti royal family and the doctor was a dentist and the whole story was bollocks but as usual no-one bothered to check. Much like the 'weapons of mass destruction'. Personally I think it all due to Iraqi and Saddam thinking about selling Oil in Euros.

Right now, today, the strongholds and all the personnel of the IS could be reduced to rubble and body parts. The annoying mosquito could be flyswattered and we'd be talkin' about sumthin' else. Instead, we concede and acquiesce and accommodate. Whatever violence O signed off on was for show and nuthin' else.

You do understand that where they are are hundreds of thousands of civilians don't you? That the reason they got in there was due to the US supporting a corrupt and anti-Sunni leader in charge in Iraq who alienated the Sunni's in that area? That ISIS is the result of 'your business' in the ME and an offshoot of Bin Laden's strategy of franchising international terrorism and that you can bomb the shit out of them but they won't be going away just dispersing? That if you really want to stop terrorism you should take the money you're spending on bombing them and use it to fund schools, health services(oh fair enuff you don't do this one for yourselves) thereby killing two birds with one stone, i.e. give the youth of these countries something to live and strive for and make the US the shining beacon it was once supposed to be, oh! three stones, they'll also love America and maybe stop wishing ill upon it and you'll probably make your money back in trade(oh! I forgot, this is off the table as well now) Still, maybe this time when you've finished bombing the shit out of them you''ll make it your business to live up to your imperial behaviour and stay this time for the hundred-odd years it'll take to ingrain the institutions needed to make those states viable democracies. But I won't hold my breath on this.

[henry quirk]

"Not saying you're the 'bad guy' just that according to your rules it wasn't your business."

No, 'I' said that, and, you're right. We made a bad situation worse, inflamed an already inflamed circumstance. But we didn't create it, not alone. Lay that at the feet of ALL the Allies.

#

"I thought your states are pretty much allowed to do as they wish with respect to laws and have religious freedom to do so if they wish?"

We do...that's cultural pluralism backed by the 1st Amendment. Problem is: Islamic Statists don't wanna come over and mind their own business...instead, they wanna come over and take over. Some folks (mebbe you?) think, cuz we we were shits, that we ought to allow this (as a kind of compensation or comeuppance).

Fuck that. No villain worth his salt just rolls over. And if indeed we are the villain (and we are, just not how you think) then expect us to act accordingly.

#

"No you give me a break as it was under the Bushes this sectarian disaster was conceived"

Well, seems to me IS has its roots in the dissolution of the Ottoman, not in anything George did, but that's beside the (my) point which, again, is that IS flourished under O...it didn't begin with him (or Bush)...it GREW with him.

#

As for the rest: yes, let's keep stickin' our nose into the region, throw money and schools and whatnot at 'em. Let's trade one interventionism in for another. I think we both agree the U.S. is pretty freakin' awful at exporting 'Americanism'. The best thing -- for them, for us -- is to stop mucking around in the internal affairs of other nations (no matter how deplorable they are).

Nations reform from within, not without and we Americans have proven -- to my satisfaction, anyway -- that we aren't worth diddly squat at managing the affairs of others (to some degree, our recent failures in managing ourselves are tied to our desire to export 'Americanism' instead of simply leading by example).

So, again, for the record: yes, America has been the bad guy; no, America didn't start the shit, we just made it a whole lot worse; yes, we need to stop mucking around in other folks' business; no, we shouldn't allow Islamic Statists a foothold in the States (cuz sharia really, really sucks...bad...big time..in spades); yes, we should be bombing the shit out of strongholds, strangling supply lines, wrecking lines of transaction, and pretty much anything else we can do to contain IS (and its sister/brother organizations and allies) and drive it back to the hellholes (we exacerbated, but didn't create [not alone, anyway]).

[Belinda]

Henry Quirk wrote:

Nations reform from within, not without and we Americans have proven -- to my satisfaction, anyway -- that we aren't worth diddly squat at managing the affairs of others (to some degree, our recent failures in managing ourselves are tied to our desire to export 'Americanism' instead of simply leading by example).

Nations can benefit from the right kind of help from without. I read about an American called Mortenson who by chance began to help some mountain villagers in Northern Pakistan foothills of the Karakoram by building a school.He was not trained in any diplomatic skills but was just a thoroughly nice man whose help was terribly welcome. He impoverished himself to help people in Pakistan, and raised funds to build more schools and bridges.

[Belinda]

Henry Quirk wrote:

Nations reform from within, not without and we Americans have proven -- to my satisfaction, anyway -- that we aren't worth diddly squat at managing the affairs of others (to some degree, our recent failures in managing ourselves are tied to our desire to export 'Americanism' instead of simply leading by example).

Nations can benefit from the right kind of help from without. I read about an American called Mortenson who helped mountain villagers in Northern Pakistan foothills of the Karakoram by building a school.He was not trained in any diplomatic skills but was just a helpful man whose help was terribly welcome, as the villagers would be unlikely to have a school building to this day if he had not made it happen. He impoverished himself to help people in Pakistan, and raised funds to build more schools and bridges. It's even better when a foreigner is thoroughly educated in the ways of another people, and is able to help them from a position of expertise.

Many foreign experts come to the UK to work and provide a lot of the viability of our health service.
Despite all the adverse criticism of religious missionaries in Africa these people, both Christian and Muslim, built schools and hospitals. Africans were happy to live with any religion that provided.

Once native populations get education, especially the women, they are more independent and more able to sort out the internal affairs on their own country.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

It wasn't tolerance. It was the blind self-interest of the separate powers that ruled a provincial country, some of whose loyalties lay with other European concerns present in India. When the East India Co. arrived in India, in the 1600's, it was simply to trade. In order to protect its interests, it brought over British soldiers, that grew into the East India Co.'s own private army. Some provincial rulers found the British militia to be highly efficient and effective and would pay for the use of British militia to protect their own interests from neighbouring rulers. Over the course of a couple of hundred years, the Indians pretty much benefited from the British presence and, as they were a divided nation subject to several provincial rulers, many of whom had good relationships with the British, they just didn't see British rule creeping in to take over until it was too late to resist. The militia, first brought into protect the interests of the East India Company, quickly developed beyond their initial remit to protect, to become a private corporate armed force, used as an instrument of geo-political power and expansion. It became the most powerful military force in the Indian sub-continent. To some extent, Indians brought it upon themselves. To a greater extent, the East India Co. was the first evil corporation to dominate a huge part of the world.

Those in power aren't the population and as a rule don't give a shit about anyone but themselves.

[henry quirk]

Belinda,

No doubt individuals and private concerns can do good...governments, not so much...in particular, my government...America needs to weed its own garden before it can go messin' about in the gardens of others (but it also needs to be ready to rain diwn holy hell on folks lookin' for not-agreed-upon compensation, cuz -- again -- sharia realy sucks).