Venezuela

[Dalek Prime]

Well, certainly a capitalism can end up that way, but I'm not so sure about an open or unrestricted or unrestrained or free market.

Could you provide examples of a free market or whatever that isn't capitalism, by any other name?

[henry quirk]

Probably not, beyond my examples in this thread.

[Walker]

Walker, I lived in Venezuela for 5 years or so and I think I can say a thing or two that might help you. I don't think you would get these perspectives anywhere else and most European or American people will look at Venezuela through eyes that cannot see it since they see it through their own terms, their own lens of perception.

One interesting and important element to the culture of Venezuela is the cultural matrix of the place: a specific indigenous culture that was rebellious and non-cooperative and resisted the Spanish tooth and nail. You might imagine that this was a universal feature of all indigenous cultures and yet it is not. Each indigenous culture resisted the Conquest differently. For example, in Mexico many indigenous tribes were already conditioned to submission by the dominance of the Aztec culture, so when the Spanish came on the scene and soundly defeated the Aztecs the Spanish more or less took over their network.

I don't know a great deal about it but the tribes around Caracas were ferocious and never really gave in to the Spanish colonial rulership. There is a very interesting and complicating feature to Venezuelan culture that I have never seen referred to in any Western journalism: The native religion of Venezuela. It is a mixture of spiritism (Alan Kardec), indigenous mythology, mythologies of the African slaves, all mixed together with Catholic and Christian notions. There is a spiritual 'corte' (court) of deceased souls which can be supplicated by the living to act in this world on their behalf. El Indio Guacaipuro is an entity which is invoked and channeled by devotees in rites and rituals similar to Haitian Voodoo and Cuban Santeria. Guaicaipuro was one of these rebellious Indian chiefs I referred to and he is a sort of minor god within the Venezuelan psyche, along with 'El Negro Felipe' (an African Slave entity) and a host of other entities which can as I say be invoked and called on for help in this world.

As in all of Latin America the social and economic structures of Venezuela followed the pattern of post-conquest. You know how this goes: wealthy elites with landed interests and a larger percentage of the post-colonial population living in poor rural communities and situations. When the oil industry expoloded in Venezuela in the early 20th century it gave a great deal (more) wealth to these elites and a certain amount of general wealth to the whole country. But they never exploited it as an opportunity. Never used the wealth to develop industries, infrastructure, etc. In the 60s and 70s there was so much money floating around and Venezuela was relatively stable. But with the 60s radicalism the mood of nationalistic rebellion increased and attempted to politicize the rural populations who enjoyed far less of that urban-centered wealth. I assume you know some of this history in Latin America?

In Venezuela these currents of rebellion, at a popular level, became animated I guess you'd say with the 'spiritual psychology' of the Corte and of course the main rebellios figures. Che Guevara would be and was interpreted as a manifestation of the indigenous rebel spirit of entities like Guaicaipuro (and a dozen other minor figures). It is hard to speak clearly about social psychology but these currents of thought and emotion are very alive and very potent in Venezuela.

In the 80s the Venezuelan economy was 'adjusted' and it collapsed more-or-less. The bubble of false wealth burst and the easy, wasteful urban lifestyle came under real pressure. But the governmental class, inflated by thousands and thousands false employees (a political figure signing up his family members and enrolling them as employees to receive pay-outs), and tens and hundreds of other abuse scams, still had access to the oil wealth, and thus represented an interested class with lots of money. Needless to say the government, for this and many reasons, was hated.

In 1992 Hugo Chavez stages d his unsuccessful coup but he electrified the nation as a manifestation of the indigenous spirit of rebellion. He was meztizo, a soldier and warrior, and was 'interpreted' and played into the myth of warrior-savior. He more or less lived this myth and was perfectly adapted to it. He had a tremendous support from all sectors except the former governing sector and, it must be said, a sector of technocrats who would certainly better have chanelled Venezuela's wealth. This class is and has been a presence in Latin America and are the ones behind the economic successes in Colombia, Chile, etc. It is a class associated with and cooperative with American and European economic interests. You'd have to have an interest in Latin America to know of the struggles of this new class, as it were, against old entrenched political classes.

In short, Chavez used all his astounding charisma to establish a power-base in Venezuela. I won't bore you with the details but it had much to do with rhetoric and promises and far less to do with actual works. Yet the people, even when their conditions did not change much, or got worse, still loved him. There in my view is the power of social psychology and the mythic element.

Hugo Chavez and his family and a whole class of hangers-on have gutted Venezuela just as most historical strongmen have done (caudillismo). Billions and billions of dollars channeled into this new parasitic class. Much rhetoric, little accomplished socially, and the destruction of the economic class that did exist in Venezuela. The level of destruction and misery is terrible and it will take a full generation to reconstruct Venezuela.

I focused on the religion of Venezuela (El Corte Celestial) because I think that it illustrates a relevant psychological factor that operates in culture. If you wanted some sort of summation from me I would say that to get a country and an economy to operate correctly is a rational effort and must be undertaken by trained technocrats. These technocrats must have been educated in Europe and the US to gain the expertise and a 'model' on which to base their efforts. For the Latin American economies and cultures to gain a degree of health and functionality the rhetoric of rebellion and non-cooperation, while attractive to the angry psychology of the poor and abused (for good reasons), never works out well. This is a down-side of populism. Thus, the Venezuelan psychology in and of itself, because it got hold of the whole culture, destroyed the possibility of progress and dragged things into the ground. My view is that 'the people' do not know how to progress and when given rein, mess it up. This is a sad fact but it is a fact. Good government requires, well, good government. Getting to 'good government' in Latin America has been a loooonnggggg road.

It is important to note that a class of European and American social justice warriors, who had no understanding of Venezuela or Latin America, attempted to 'come to the rescue' of Venezuela with the 'Hands Off Venezuela!' Movement and all the 'progressive' rhetoric and activism that you might be aware of. There are videos of Noam Chomsky sharing the state with Chavez and speaking of the 'tremendous good' Chavez was doing. Progressive idealism is one thing, the actual fumnction oof economics is quite another. Formerly well on the Left end of the spectrum myself, my experience in Venezuela politicized me away from leftist politics. You certainly pick this up in what I've written here. Colombia (where I now live) has taken a different route: Run by the rational technocratic class I referred to earlier and yet semi-socialized in terms of universal healthcare and other programs, it walks a line between income disribution schemes and real economic development. If thinks don't get wonky Colombia's success will become more And more apparent.

Thank you Gustav. You have provided many doorways here for understanding.

Upon first reading the broadest brush I see is, applicable to the formation of a principle true for mankind, is the clash of an indigenous consciousness with an invading consciousness, and you offer characteristics of both in consideration of a situation that contains both, but is different from both.

So during the summer of fun I’ll pause now and then to invite a response appropriate to your thoughtfulness and generosity.

[Gustav Bjornstrand]

My pleasure Walker.

Along these lines I find it an interesting meditation to remember that Europe (the tribal regions of N Europe) were conquered and civilized by Rome. I assume they were similarly unruly and rebellious, at least for a time. The Protestant Reformation is, on some levels, a rebellious, indigenous movement, but there were signs of the same well in advance.

Pagan rebellion against Christian forms and metaphysics is interesting to consider in this light. The rebellion thus energized itself in the cradle of the Germanic world, and yet it is a rebellion against Rome and 'the chaos of peoples'.

[Jacobsladder]

Along these lines I find it an interesting meditation to remember that Europe (the tribal regions of N Europe) were conquered and civilized by Rome. I assume they were similarly unruly and rebellious, at least for a time.

That seem like a very shallow, high school reading of history. The whole idea of tribes to "conquer and civilize" expresses just the prejudice of the time, showing already in the term "barbarians", which just means "not Roman" in most of the historical sources mostly written by the Romans themselves. It didn't express anything in terms of cultural of military capacity of the people involved. Compare perhaps the world "heathen" in a more Judeo-Christian context.

Anyway, lets take for example the Celtic-speaking Gaul. The civilization process was more like syncretism since military they were quite matched and civilisational not that significantly different in terms of wealth, culture and organisation. Probably the Romans just wanted the gold, which the Gauls where famous for having a lot of it. Filthy wealthy barbarians! And perhaps to stop the Gauls from forming any future military threat since they threatened even the Greek already in earlier times, before the Roman ascent. Or in other words, there were many cultural and trade ties way before any invasion or "civilisation". In the end, there's really little base for any talk of civilization "by Rome", as the time frame is just way too long and the changes too small to know exactly which development was thanks to exactly what. But Romanisation, yes indeed.

When the Roman republic became empire, we're talking about a largely administrative body, overseeing a network of alliances and trade routes. But not a match for "Barbarian" might and splendour of the time, see also Arminius, Alaric and Genseric Odoacer, the first Barbarian emperor. Although by that time one could argue that the Roman empire was in decline and eclipsed by more organized, developed and cultivated "others". The Romans only often didn't realize that fact yet, perhaps stubbornly holding on to their old glory and Roman-centric thought? Decline alright.

[Hobbes' Choice]

USA

What the fuck is happening there?

[Hobbes' Choice]

http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/4b9b3debc73d4 ... d8xydf.jpg

[Walker]

This will be important when the media tells the public it is important. That won’t happen in the U.S. unless Trump is elected, and then guess where the blame will be placed. Bank on the principle, but not the election outcome. The wall between Trump and the finish line is enormous.

Taxpayer money spent on the last five POTUS vacations would ease a lot of human suffering. He may be on vacation now since his surrogate VPOTUS Biden has been found and put before a microphone. Good old Joe quickly got folksy and angry-voiced as is his wont, then he spontaneously and publically pointed out the poor slob who follows him around with the nuclear codes. Good old Joe, what a card.