Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

How should society be organised, if at all?

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Impenitent
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by Impenitent » Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:32 am

so many speakers of Aramaic actually wrote what was said

-Imp

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by Immanuel Can » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:11 pm

Impenitent wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:32 am
so many speakers of Aramaic actually wrote what was said

-Imp
"So many" is "four"? :shock:

marjoram_blues
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by marjoram_blues » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:17 pm

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:54 pm
marjoram_blues wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:47 pm
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:20 pm


It would be nice if anyone gave it a serious try.
In some senses our first societies were egalitarian and many are thought to have included ideas of common property as can be seen amongst extant hunting and gathering groups.
But socialism has only been tried in very limited ways, usually to mitigate the worst effects of capitalism. By and large the provision of free universal education, policing, and fire services have been very successful indeed.
What has gone wrong?
Socialist politicians need to call out the lies (historic and current ) and be effective in interviews.
I was half listening to a ch4 news debate when twice a young female calmly challenged opposition by simply saying 'That is not correct', followed by succinct reasons. So very heartening.
What has gone wrong is that the BBC, ITV, and most other networks are bing controlled by established interests.
C4 News is great - but you won't see much on the other channels, and C4 also plays the establishment card on most occasions.
Indeed. And hopefully the likes of Jon Snow will keep the spotlight on all parties involved.
His reporting and personal concern re the Grenfell tower fire and its victims - exceptional.
Just look at his wiki page - look at his privileged background and marvel at his socks and ties.

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henry quirk
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"a bullshit strawman of socialism"

Post by henry quirk » Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:19 pm

Of course it isn't.

There ain't no free lunch: not for the capitalist and not for the socialist.

Somebody has to 'pay'.

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Re:

Post by marjoram_blues » Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:51 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:19 pm
Of course it isn't.

There ain't no free lunch: not for the capitalist and not for the socialist.

Somebody has to 'pay'.
The fundamental NHS principle was that care should be universally and equitably available.
So, 'free' at point of access. Of course, treatments and staff need to be paid for. There are disparities, and hidden decisions taken.

We should be having open and comprehensive debates about how to meet the ever-increasing demands, covering all kinds of funding. Such debates should be cross-party, including those most knowledgeable/experienced in a very complex service.

I don't even know why this should be seen as socialist, liberal, conservative, whatever.
Forward-looking, forward-planning requires long-term clear headedness, not short-term ideological political party tosh.

Same with the infrastructure and transport systems. What energy is wasted hurling insults and misrepresentation. And yes, a common good requires a purse of coins. Who gets to scatter them where? How can we afford not to have e.g. good defences against whatever threat.
So, who gives what to whom and why?
Or do you not give a damn...

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:34 pm

I don't get it.

Hobbes sez certain things are free...I say they aren't...that's all I say...I make no attempt in this thread to assess the value of those things Hobbes sez are free (but aren't)...I just point out there ain't no free lunch...sonebody has to pay (always, for everything).

What do I get for my trouble, for my simple, obvious, value-neutral, observation?

Grief from Hobbes; grief from Blue.

Again: apart from the actual value of public services, if a community is gonna have 'em, the community will pay for them, in one way or another...even at point of access a price is paid (in time, loss of privacy, loss of self-directive capacity, etc.).

So: if you wanna ignore my comments, fine, but -- please -- spare me the "That is a moronic thing to say." and the "Or do you not give a damn..." comments.

'Well, Henry, if it's so obvious why are you even bringing it up?'

Cuz Hobbes made a claim that isn't true in any form...paying for 'it' is foundational to having or using any service or product (public or private).

Lots of fine words get vomited up about communal compassion and but none of that good intention means diddly if you can't pay for it....hence my correction of Hobbes.

marjoram_blues
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by marjoram_blues » Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:12 pm

No you will not be spared any 'grief', hennery, you know it!
I'm just putting a few thoughts out there, as much for my own sake.
And spare us the 'I don't get it', scratches head innocence.

Some don't think too much about health care provision, or the paying of it. They perhaps resent paying via taxes, charities, whatever - they may stamp their feet and cry unfair. Until they need it themselves; emergency attention, or someone they love is dying cancer.

And it's not just about some kind of communal compassion either. It's more - think research to prevent ill-effects of ingesting poisonous products. To promote health and educate.
Mental health issues are often neglected, at society's peril.
It's common sense. What's not to get? And I'm talking to anyone who wants to listen.
Most just scan and move on. Religion is sexier.

Anyway, I'm in bed and dunking ginger nuts into a nice cuppa tea. If it wasn't for the NHS, I would be dead - about 10 years ago. I don't know if I'm grateful or not...I suppose I was around for my parents...
And so it goes...

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: ain't no such thing as 'free'

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:19 pm

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:55 pm
henry quirk wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:37 pm
"By and large the provision of free universal education, policing, and fire services have been very successful indeed."

Somebody pays for all of that...not one bit of any of it is 'free'.

#
That is a moronic thing to say. I see you are a well trained Trumpanzee.

Society would have to pay much more if there were none of these things.
Bob sees "paying" as striping away his advantage over others, fears it not growing, not being hoarded, such that his security 'seems' to be uncertain, not assured. But in fact it's just a shiny trinket, an illusory human concept all about fear, selfishness, power and control. It's meant to divide and conquer, it always has been, since the most archaic of times of even greater fears than those of this day.

The truest intellectuals of the day, now see that "paying" is traveling a path of ignorance, especially of that which divides us, as all knowledge that humans can ever really attain, with the truest of vision, is that of ourselves, our minds, our psyches. All the concepts are ours, good or bad, and it's time to weed out all the bad, because ultimately the bad are all those that have been responsible for all our hate, jealousy, envy, fighting, and wars. Once we are unified, there shall be no fear of "the others," "them," as it shall be understood that "all" are just like us, fearful of meeting our final moment, and everything that 'natures' circumstance might cause it to be premature.

We must truly understand the totality of this "symbiotic biosphere," this planet earth, that has boar and sustained us, and can mean our untimely demise if unbalanced, either ecologically, molecularity, astrologically or hemispherically (ideologically). These "spheres" of influence, that are of our universe, must "balance" for the life on this beautiful blue metamorphic elemental to continue, for as long as the universe, much larger and powerful than us, shall allow. Until human kind there was no life that was capable of upsetting it's balance. We need to understand the ultimate absolute truth of our "oneness" here, or we're "all" doomed!

Signed,

Spheres of Balance

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:42 pm

"paying of it"

Couple of years back I had a spot of trouble...I'm uninsured (since the ADA declared my catastrophic policy substandard)... can't get what I want under the ADA and I won't accept subsidies, so I paid the two grand for diagnosis myself (piece by piece, payment by payment)...I think quite a bit about 'paying', about my responsibility to 'me', about how I don't want some one bearing my burden, how I wish well-intentioned (and not so well-intentioned folks) would just leave me be.

#

"Bob sees "paying" as striping away his advantage over others"

Mebbe Bob does...me, I seeing paying as the fair and due compensation I owe the service or product provider...paying is a responsible act....I don't how my paying for what I use gives me an advantage over others...me paying 'does' absolutely remove any advantage (debt) others might use against me.

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: Don't know what your beef is, cuz...

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:55 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:13 am
henry quirk wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:42 pm
...all I said was that all those things you describe as 'free' aren't.
Darn right.

Leftists believe in "magical money" and "magical government."
Only selfish fools believe in values of illusion.
Zeitgeist: Addendum (2008)
But I'm sure you'll really like:
Zeitgeist: The Movie (2007)
But we can't forget this one either as it wraps it up quite nicely:
Zeitgeist: Moving Forward (2011)
Of course you could always watch them in order. The first 2 are approx 2 hrs long, the 3rd, 2 hrs & 40 mins.

We can have as many freebies as we want, because they don't come from us, from the hard work of workers, from taxpayers, or from draining the economy, they come in unmeasured bounty from a special, magical place we call "the government."

The magic government can solve anything, and all the magic money we get from it is free. Are you suggesting we shouldn't cue up and get our freebies? Wow, you're mean.

marjoram_blues
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by marjoram_blues » Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:07 pm

That kind of money to pay for a diagnosis alone, never mind any treatment...wow!
I think most people here think they have paid their dues into the NHS and take it for granted.
I'm pretty sure that I have received more than I ever paid in. Even without me being billed.
I'm not sure how long the NHS will last in its current form.
Perhaps that is for the best.
But if we are to die, sick, homeless and penniless, then for pity's sake don't criminalise any assisted suicide.

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re:

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:18 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:42 pm
"paying of it"

Couple of years back I had a spot of trouble...I'm uninsured (since the ADA declared my catastrophic policy substandard)... can't get what I want under the ADA and I won't accept subsidies, so I paid the two grand for diagnosis myself (piece by piece, payment by payment)...I think quite a bit about 'paying', about my responsibility to 'me', about how I don't want some one bearing my burden, how I wish well-intentioned (and not so well-intentioned folks) would just leave me be.

#

"Bob sees "paying" as striping away his advantage over others"

Mebbe Bob does...me, I seeing paying as the fair and due compensation I owe the service or product provider...paying is a responsible act....I don't how my paying for what I use gives me an advantage over others...me paying 'does' absolutely remove any advantage (debt) others might use against me.
My point is that the "quest" for money is "always" about seeking advantage over another! Because it's illusory!

Hypothetical:
Post apocalyptic scenario, no more governments:

I'm a farmer, I work a farm, you come to me starving with your gold, platinum, diamonds and green paper, and say, "can I buy some food to eat?" And I say, "all that crap you have is worthless, I don't "need" any of it. All anyone "needs" is first: Air, second: water, third: food, and forth: shelter. I need none of that crap you have, in order to live off the land and survive!"

Then you either help me farm or you die!

Money is worthless! It's a facade, it's a lazy man's illusory thing meant to control, have power and dominate. If tomorrow, every human that worked the land or made things with their hands refused to accept money for their goods, all the richest would instantly be broke, starving and dying! And all the relatively poorer would be the richest, or course they'd have many callouses, and a nice suntan, if only on their faces, necks and hands.

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henry quirk
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"you either help me farm or you die!"

Post by henry quirk » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:34 pm

Thanks for the offer but I'll stick with my own farming and hunting and leave you to yours.

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henry quirk
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"take it for granted"

Post by henry quirk » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:36 pm

It's the same here in the U.S.

Most think they're owed this, that, and the other.

America is a well-domesticated country.

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: "you either help me farm or you die!"

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:10 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:34 pm
Thanks for the offer but I'll stick with my own farming and hunting and leave you to yours.
But then I know you well enough to know you'd think that way. I've always known you're a "worker with hands" kind of guy! And I salute you for it! ;-)

At least that's one thing we have in common. :-)

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