Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

How should society be organised, if at all?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:39 pm

Gary Childress wrote:
Thu Apr 21, 2016 1:32 am
Here's a definition of "Socialism" according to a Wiki article. It seems pretty well stated....
What thoughts do others have on the topic of socialism?
A political system has to take account of human nature. The problem with socialism is that it doesn't. Instead, it idealizes human nature, and designs its program based on what its adherents would find congenial -- not what they find in the real world. That's why all socialist systems fail...many spectacularly, and with terrible destructive effects.

A secondary question: in what sense is it evident that people are "equal," or ought to be made "equal"? I'd be interested in hearing what people think of that.

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:42 pm

bobevenson wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:31 pm
SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:08 pm
I believe that humans should strive to attain "social ownership" where everyone is equal, where there is no disparity between anyone's available resources.
Nice pipe dream, honey.
Sorry assed laziness, worthless! ;-)

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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by bobevenson » Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:53 pm

True, but I'm confident you and your ilk will eventually see the light at the end of that dark tunnel.

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:13 pm

bobevenson wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:53 pm
True, but I'm confident you and your ilk will eventually see the light at the end of that dark tunnel.
Who's to say Bob? Only time shall tell either way. You know me by now, unlike many, I refuse to look into my illusory crystal ball so as to state something as if it's certainly the case. I'm much smarter than that. ;-)

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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by bobevenson » Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:01 pm

SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:13 pm
I'm much smarter than that.
Please cite your source.

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:06 pm

bobevenson wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:01 pm
SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:13 pm
I'm much smarter than that.
Please cite your source.
Is that your best? :lol:

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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:20 pm

Gary Childress wrote:
Thu Apr 21, 2016 1:32 am

What thoughts do others have on the topic of socialism?
It would be nice if anyone gave it a serious try.
In some senses our first societies were egalitarian and many are thought to have included ideas of common property as can be seen amongst extant hunting and gathering groups.
But socialism has only been tried in very limited ways, usually to mitigate the worst effects of capitalism. By and large the provision of free universal education, policing, and fire services have been very successful indeed.

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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by marjoram_blues » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:47 pm

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:20 pm
Gary Childress wrote:
Thu Apr 21, 2016 1:32 am

What thoughts do others have on the topic of socialism?
It would be nice if anyone gave it a serious try.
In some senses our first societies were egalitarian and many are thought to have included ideas of common property as can be seen amongst extant hunting and gathering groups.
But socialism has only been tried in very limited ways, usually to mitigate the worst effects of capitalism. By and large the provision of free universal education, policing, and fire services have been very successful indeed.
What has gone wrong?
Socialist politicians need to call out the lies (historic and current ) and be effective in interviews.
I was half listening to a ch4 news debate when twice a young female calmly challenged opposition by simply saying 'That is not correct', followed by succinct reasons. So very heartening.

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henry quirk
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ain't no such thing as 'free'

Post by henry quirk » Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:37 pm

"By and large the provision of free universal education, policing, and fire services have been very successful indeed."

Somebody pays for all of that...not one bit of any of it is 'free'.

#

"It would be nice if anyone gave it a serious try."

According to at least two people in-forum, socialism is what socialists 'do'...if so, why aren't socialists 'doing'? Seems to me, if socialism is so friggin' great, then folks 'doing' it would set the undeniable example that, eventually, everyone would follow. Never seems to work that way, does it? *Always the socialist works damn hard to make the other guy 'do'.

Mebbe socialists should 'tend to their own gardens'...grow them tomatoes big, red, and juicy...mebbe then non-socialists might be inclined to give communitarian strains a second look.

Keep playin' at being the irresistable force, however, and folks like me will keep bein' immovable (and hostile) objects.









*this, of course, is not just the sin of the socialist...pretty much every 'ism' is guilty...as I say, damned few are comfortable, it seems, just mindin' their own business and leavin' the other guy to his

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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:54 pm

marjoram_blues wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:47 pm
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:20 pm
Gary Childress wrote:
Thu Apr 21, 2016 1:32 am

What thoughts do others have on the topic of socialism?
It would be nice if anyone gave it a serious try.
In some senses our first societies were egalitarian and many are thought to have included ideas of common property as can be seen amongst extant hunting and gathering groups.
But socialism has only been tried in very limited ways, usually to mitigate the worst effects of capitalism. By and large the provision of free universal education, policing, and fire services have been very successful indeed.
What has gone wrong?
Socialist politicians need to call out the lies (historic and current ) and be effective in interviews.
I was half listening to a ch4 news debate when twice a young female calmly challenged opposition by simply saying 'That is not correct', followed by succinct reasons. So very heartening.
What has gone wrong is that the BBC, ITV, and most other networks are bing controlled by established interests.
C4 News is great - but you won't see much on the other channels, and C4 also plays the establishment card on most occasions.

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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: ain't no such thing as 'free'

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:55 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:37 pm
"By and large the provision of free universal education, policing, and fire services have been very successful indeed."

Somebody pays for all of that...not one bit of any of it is 'free'.

#
That is a moronic thing to say. I see you are a well trained Trumpanzee.

Society would have to pay much more if there were none of these things.

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henry quirk
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Don't know what your beef is, cuz...

Post by henry quirk » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:42 pm

...all I said was that all those things you describe as 'free' aren't.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Don't know what your beef is, cuz...

Post by Immanuel Can » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:13 am

henry quirk wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:42 pm
...all I said was that all those things you describe as 'free' aren't.
Darn right.

Leftists believe in "magical money" and "magical government." We can have as many freebies as we want, because they don't come from us, from the hard work of workers, from taxpayers, or from draining the economy, they come in unmeasured bounty from a special, magical place we call "the government."

The magic government can solve anything, and all the magic money we get from it is free. Are you suggesting we shouldn't cue up and get our freebies? Wow, you're mean.

davidm
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Re: Don't know what your beef is, cuz...

Post by davidm » Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:08 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:13 am
henry quirk wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:42 pm
...all I said was that all those things you describe as 'free' aren't.
Darn right.

Leftists believe in "magical money" and "magical government." We can have as many freebies as we want, because they don't come from us, from the hard work of workers, from taxpayers, or from draining the economy, they come in unmeasured bounty from a special, magical place we call "the government."

The magic government can solve anything, and all the magic money we get from it is free. Are you suggesting we shouldn't cue up and get our freebies? Wow, you're mean.
The above is nothing but a bullshit strawman of socialism, of course, but it sure is amusing to see a self-proclaimed follower of the socialist Jesus renouncing (actual, as opposed to straw-man) socialism. :lol:

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Don't know what your beef is, cuz...

Post by Immanuel Can » Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:22 am

davidm wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:08 am
...the socialist Jesus...
Yeah, I've heard that phrase before...always from people who don't really know squat about what Jesus Christ actually said. "My kingdom is not of this world," said He to Pilate, "If it were, my servants would be fighting." But they weren't. And He wasn't. Hardly what we call "socialism."

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