Can you think of anything good about islam ?

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Obvious Leo
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Re: Can you think of anything good about islam ?

Post by Obvious Leo » Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:54 pm

Hobbes' Choice wrote:Most of what the Arabs taught was Ptolemy, Euclid and Aristotle, bringing the decimal system from the far east.
I wasn't actually thinking of the Arabs, although by implication my statement was a generalisation which included them. There were a few Arab scholars of some significance but I was primarily referring to the Persians. These guys hated each other even more than they hated the infidel, an antipathy which is still driving most of the violence in the region.

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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Can you think of anything good about islam ?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Tue Jan 12, 2016 11:33 pm

Obvious Leo wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:Most of what the Arabs taught was Ptolemy, Euclid and Aristotle, bringing the decimal system from the far east.
I wasn't actually thinking of the Arabs, although by implication my statement was a generalisation which included them. There were a few Arab scholars of some significance but I was primarily referring to the Persians. These guys hated each other even more than they hated the infidel, an antipathy which is still driving most of the violence in the region.
You seem to have gone off the boil.
Where exactly does Islam encourage a fluorescence of art and science?

Obvious Leo
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Re: Can you think of anything good about islam ?

Post by Obvious Leo » Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:47 am

Hobbes' Choice wrote:Where exactly does Islam encourage a fluorescence of art and science?
I never said that. I said that under early Islam the arts and sciences flourished. I made no attempt to draw a direct causal relationship although I did draw a causal relationship between the end of this Renaissance and the rise of Islam as a tool of political oppression, which closely parallels the situation in Europe under the Roman church, as you pointed out.

By the way you failed to mention the significance of the role of the printing press in finally elevating European thought out of the dark ages. As more and more people were enabled to learn to read the monolithic power of the church became steadily weaker. What religion is able to achieve astonishingly well is the propagation of ignorance but this is only possible if it has complete control over the flow and content of information.

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Re: Can you think of anything good about islam ?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Wed Jan 13, 2016 1:06 am

Obvious Leo wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:Where exactly does Islam encourage a fluorescence of art and science?
I never said that. I said that under early Islam the arts and sciences flourished. I made no attempt to draw a direct causal relationship although I did draw a causal relationship between the end of this Renaissance and the rise of Islam as a tool of political oppression, which closely parallels the situation in Europe under the Roman church, as you pointed out.

By the way you failed to mention the significance of the role of the printing press in finally elevating European thought out of the dark ages. As more and more people were enabled to learn to read the monolithic power of the church became steadily weaker. What religion is able to achieve astonishingly well is the propagation of ignorance but this is only possible if it has complete control over the flow and content of information.
A printing press was significant, but as an inanimate object not possible for it to direct its own actions. But where Martin Tindale had failed in the previous generation to Gutenburg and Martin Luther to popularise Christianity by producing non Latin version of the Bible - the advent of the press made the Reformation possible.
Initially printing simply gave religion a massive boost causing the death of millions in conflict that had its echoes in Northern Ireland right up to the end of the 20thC.
Beware of advances in science they do not always have good results. Where the Internet may lead us is anyone's guess, but it looks like it could be a force for evil as well as good.

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Re: Can you think of anything good about islam ?

Post by Obvious Leo » Wed Jan 13, 2016 1:32 am

Hobbes' Choice wrote: Where the Internet may lead us is anyone's guess, but it looks like it could be a force for evil as well as good.
I very much agree, but like the printing press it is a genie which can never be stuffed back into the bottle.

ISIS has been an excellent example of how both the internet and the social media can be used to propagate harmful ideas. On the other hand it also seems probable that they are also responsible for a more enlightened attitude towards human sexuality in the broader community as well as dispelling the myth of the "war on drugs". Ubiquitous information is a double-edged sword but I still reckon it's better than the alternative.

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Re: Can you think of anything good about islam ?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Wed Jan 13, 2016 1:37 am

Obvious Leo wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote: Where the Internet may lead us is anyone's guess, but it looks like it could be a force for evil as well as good.
I very much agree, but like the printing press it is a genie which can never be stuffed back into the bottle.

ISIS has been an excellent example of how both the internet and the social media can be used to propagate harmful ideas. On the other hand it also seems probable that they are also responsible for a more enlightened attitude towards human sexuality in the broader community as well as dispelling the myth of the "war on drugs". Ubiquitous information is a double-edged sword but I still reckon it's better than the alternative.
ISIS is one thing, but the potential for further corporate ideological control and monitoring of our day to day activities is massive and far more subtle and dangerous than the rather tawdry and obvious ISIS.
In fact it serves the subtle powers for us to think ISIS is more of a danger as that justfies more surveillance and the loss of personal liberty. The golden age of Internet freedom of expression is over already.

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Re: Can you think of anything good about islam ?

Post by Obvious Leo » Wed Jan 13, 2016 2:19 am

Hobbes' Choice wrote:The golden age of Internet freedom of expression is over already.
Along with the notion of copyright and any other form of intellectual property rights. These were always something of a myth anyway but even keeping up the pretence is no longer credible.

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Re: Can you think of anything good about islam ?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Wed Jan 13, 2016 2:13 pm

Obvious Leo wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:The golden age of Internet freedom of expression is over already.
Along with the notion of copyright and any other form of intellectual property rights. These were always something of a myth anyway but even keeping up the pretence is no longer credible.
Copyright and the nonprofit transgression of it is a see-saw of technological advance. Songs, once written were freely copied by anyone with the same instruments and a good memory. When the first records came about the artists used to have to do a new performance for each recording. The industry finally got the upper hand with mass production of records and they still feel that the power over performer and listener alike, that they had then should still be enjoyed. However tape recordings changed that, and we were able to share music that we had bought. When the compact cassette came about the industry were not content to simply increase sales, they wised to stop people making copies but were powerless to stop it. CDs gave them the upper hand for a very short while, but PCs enabled people to copy even those despite major attempts to stop it.
I sort of fell that technology has provided the industry with a global market, but can't help think that music has not improved. It seems to have been reduced to the lowest common denominator. Where once you had 20-30 great bands per country, now you are lucky to get 5 good bands internationally. I can't see how a new face with the impact that Bowie or Led Zep. had would be possible now. Maybe I'm just old.

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Re: Can you think of anything good about islam ?

Post by bobevenson » Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:17 pm

Can you think of anything good about Islam?
Yes, it brings Muslims a step closer to Ouzo.

EchoesOfTheHorizon
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Re: Can you think of anything good about islam ?

Post by EchoesOfTheHorizon » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:07 am

Islam early on explored Neo-Platonism and later Aristotelian Philosophy, was a pioneer in Empericism, held poetry in high regard, invented sociology and comparative religious studies, as well as the first modern historians. They maintained several philosophical schools from Antiquity that died off in the west, and contributed greatly to Arab, Turkish and even Chinese and Indic civilization.

Islam has many more good points, but also glaring weaknesses. I'm hardly a apologist for it, but to say it is without contributions is ignorant and moronic. When a society has strengths, admit to it. Without religious faith, a society turns stupid and stagnates. Period.

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Re: Can you think of anything good about islam ?

Post by bobevenson » Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:55 pm

How can you say anything good about a religion that is not satisfied to just run the lives of its practitioners, but everybody else it has political power over?

EchoesOfTheHorizon
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Re: Can you think of anything good about islam ?

Post by EchoesOfTheHorizon » Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:41 pm

I can say it is good, as the nature of good isn't limited to politics or control, and can be part and partial to it, but exists even to those alone on islands as hermits, far beyond the control of the state of politicians and theologians. I recommend a brief overview of the Hayy ibn Yaqdhan

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayy_ibn_Yaqdhan

I am a Christian, and was a soldier deployed to Iraq, but this being said, I'm not unenlightened to the point of ignorance of foresaking all that is alien to my own beliefs. I don't go against what I believe, but unlike too many atheists here too cocksure about their beliefs, I do reach out with a hunger to explore, to understand the philosophy of every culture, whatever nation or point in history. A cosmopolitan philosopher should feel comfortable in any state, in what ever era, whatever the nature of discourse. Islam has a lot of black marks, good reasons to reject it, but they are still every bit as human as you or I am, and are capable of great things. They are just as much people of the 21st century today as you or I or anyone else here is, and and we shouldn't bash them down into the plane of a rejectable, unworthy existence. We smashed the caliphate in Raqqa not because is was Islamic, but truely demonic and did atrocious disposable things, went against every ethical formula mankind has put foreward, even amongst Muslims over the eras. We did not smash Islam though, it is growing quite well and just as civilized as anywhere else in many other quarters of the world, many with armies and states far more advanced than anything ISIS could put together.

The world is a big place, and the individual is so damn small, don't be in a rush to pass judgment just to fill the void of what you don't understand. There was a pretty damn ignorant Islamic philosopher back during the crusades named Usama ibn Munqidh, was a true medieval thinkers of the lesser sort, wrote on all sorts of silly novelties and insights, but even he managed to examine the nature of prejudice existing in the Levant at that time, finding some Christians to be deplorable, but finding a case of a pretty descent Christian knight living in Antioch who was renowned for not being a massive dick to everyone, actually made a effort to be nice and decent to the locals and helped a lot of people out.

Listen, if Usama could reach out beyond his own stereotypes and biases and note to the world that not everyone fit the mold of things, so can you. Just takes a little honesty and effort. I'm not saying convert, not saying take up defending Islam as a apologist. I'm just saying take the stick out of your ass and give philosophy as good honest try. A good philosopher doesn't turn away from the truth. The good exists far beyond the confines upon which you proclaimed, and even Muslims are capable of goodness, in fact are mandated to try and be good in many respects. If I, a man who has fought against this can see this, then there is no reason for you not to as well, for your life was never endangered as much as mine, and you didn't see the horrors and injustice I've seen by radicals. You don't have a legitimate reason to hold a harsher judgment towards them more than me, so at least try to match me in my acceptance that they can be good and are capable of very great things. That takes only observation of their works from afar. It is obvious upon even a honest perliminary surface investigation of their society they do far more decent things than bad in most places.

https://www.amazon.com/Book-Contemplati ... n+Classics

bobevenson
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Re: Can you think of anything good about islam ?

Post by bobevenson » Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:51 pm

Sorry, but all religions are promoted by false prophets like Billy Graham and the Pope.

EchoesOfTheHorizon
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Re: Can you think of anything good about islam ?

Post by EchoesOfTheHorizon » Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:55 am

Pope doesn't claim to be a prophet, and some prophets suck horribly at marketing, can't pull it off at all. Mormons marketed Swedenborg's religion, Swedenborg had the hardest time selling that stuff.

But back to the substance of my post. Did you read the wiki, or are you dodging the issue?

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Re: Can you think of anything good about islam ?

Post by bobevenson » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:01 pm

That's odd, I always get the impression the Pope is speaking for God rather than himself. No, I didn't read your link, but if you've got something to say, say it.

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