Subsidiarity

How should society be organised, if at all?

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tbieter
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Subsidiarity

Post by tbieter » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:17 pm

This morning I received the following quote in an email:
"The way to have good and safe government is not to trust it all to
one, but to divide it among the many, distributing to everyone exactly
the functions in which he is competent ...
- To let the National Government be entrusted with the defense of the
nation, and its foreign and federal relations ...
- The State Governments with the Civil Rights, Laws, Police and
administration of what concerns the State generally.
- The Counties with the local concerns, and each ward direct the interests
within itself.
It is by dividing and subdividing these Republics from the great
national one down through all its subordinations until it ends in the
administration of everyman's farm by himself, by placing under everyone
what his own eye may superintend, that all will be done for the best."
-- Thomas Jefferson
(1743-1826), US Founding Father, drafted the Declaration of Independence, 3rd US President
Source: Jefferson letter to Joseph Cabell, Febrary 2, 1816, Writings W., 6:544
http://quotes.liberty-tree.ca/quote_blo ... Quote.6782
Note that it was written in 1816. His idea above is identical to the idea now named subsidiarity.I wonder where Jefferson got the concept (thought) that is called subsidiarity? " I suspect that he got it from German usage: "German usage Subsidiarität (1809 or earlier in legal use;

Origins[edit]
Further information: Subsidiarity (Catholicism)
According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the term "subsidiarity" in English follows the "German usage Subsidiarität (1809 or earlier in legal use; 1931 in the context of Catholic social doctrine, in §80 of Rundschreiben über die gesellschaftliche Ordnung ("Circular letter [idiomatic English: 'encyclical'] concerning the societal order"), the German version of Pope Pius XI's encyclical Quadragesimo anno (1931))". More distantly, it is derived from the Latin verb subsidio (to aid or help), and the related noun subsidium (aid or assistance). The concept as discussed here was first described formally in Catholic social teaching.[12]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidiarity#Origins

The principle of subsidiarity was first formally developed in the encyclical Rerum novarum of 1891 by Pope Leo XIII, as an attempt to articulate a middle course between laissez-faire capitalism on the one hand and the various forms of communism, which subordinate the individual to the state, on the other. The principle was further developed in Pope Pius XI's encyclical Quadragesimo anno of 1931, and Economic Justice for All by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.
It is a fundamental principle of social philosophy, fixed and unchangeable, that one should not withdraw from individuals and commit to the community what they can accomplish by their own enterprise and industry. (Pope Pius XI, Quadragesimo anno, 79)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidiar ... tholicism)

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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Subsidiarity

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:28 pm

DId Jefferson even use the phrase subsidiarity?

The concept existed in ancient times.

tbieter
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Re: Subsidiarity

Post by tbieter » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:41 pm

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:28 pm
DId Jefferson even use the phrase subsidiarity?
No, not to my knowledge.
The concept existed in ancient times.
What evidence (sources) can you cite in support of this statement. I'm very interested in the concept. Thanks.

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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Subsidiarity

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:36 pm

tbieter wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:41 pm
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:28 pm
DId Jefferson even use the phrase subsidiarity?
No, not to my knowledge.
The concept existed in ancient times.
What evidence (sources) can you cite in support of this statement. I'm very interested in the concept. Thanks.
This is just another word for delegation of power. The Roman Empire used indigenous Chieftains, Kings etc, to deal with domestic matters whilst the military authority dealt with Federal matter and tax collection for Rome. Examples of this could probably be drawn out of ANY civilization for the last 10k years.
That's the trouble with using jargon; it masks what went before by replacing terminology, but ideas are rarely novel or unique.

tbieter
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Re: Subsidiarity

Post by tbieter » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:57 pm

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:36 pm
tbieter wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:41 pm
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:28 pm
DId Jefferson even use the phrase subsidiarity?
No, not to my knowledge.
The concept existed in ancient times.
What evidence (sources) can you cite in support of this statement. I'm very interested in the concept. Thanks.
This is just another word for delegation of power. The Roman Empire used indigenous Chieftains, Kings etc, to deal with domestic matters whilst the military authority dealt with Federal matter and tax collection for Rome. Examples of this could probably be drawn out of ANY civilization for the last 10k years.
That's the trouble with using jargon; it masks what went before by replacing terminology, but ideas are rarely novel or unique.
This "delegation of power" argument presumes that sovereign power is centralized.
Subsidiarity, in contrast, recognizes that sovereign power and authority in certain areas rests at a lesser level. For example, Catholic social policy holds that relative to the education of the child, power and authority rests in the parents.

FlashDangerpants
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Re: Subsidiarity

Post by FlashDangerpants » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:21 pm

Last I knew the Catholics also had some centralised power entrusted to a guy with a funny hat. And they definitely have this other guy who lives upstairs and tells everyone what to do.

You'll find similar ideas discussed in Pericles' funeral oration in Thucydides History of the Peloponnesian War

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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Subsidiarity

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:27 pm

tbieter wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:57 pm
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:36 pm
tbieter wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:41 pm
This is just another word for delegation of power. The Roman Empire used indigenous Chieftains, Kings etc, to deal with domestic matters whilst the military authority dealt with Federal matter and tax collection for Rome. Examples of this could probably be drawn out of ANY civilization for the last 10k years.
That's the trouble with using jargon; it masks what went before by replacing terminology, but ideas are rarely novel or unique.
This "delegation of power" argument presumes that sovereign power is centralized.
Subsidiarity, in contrast, recognizes that sovereign power and authority in certain areas rests at a lesser level. For example, Catholic social policy holds that relative to the education of the child, power and authority rests in the parents.
You are making a false distinction.

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