Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

How should society be organised, if at all?

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Gary Childress
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by Gary Childress » Thu Apr 28, 2016 12:27 am

Melchior wrote:
Gary Childress wrote:
With all due respect, what is special about those books? Or what do you find appealing or important about them? What message do you see them as communicating that is most important for others to be aware of? I haven't read them but I'm somewhat familiar with their themes from reading about them from critics and reviewers.

EDIT: And thank you for replying to my previous post above.
Just read them.
I'll see if I can get around to it one of these days. I have Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead in my library. Right now I've started reading Explaining Consciousness ed. by Jonathan Shear. I may be a while on it.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:20 pm

"Is that The Ego and Its Own?"

Yes, sir, it is.

Stirner expends a lot words to say this: I exist...I will do as I choose...you, go fuck yourself.

The work is overly long and awkward and is a showboating manifesto more than anything else. It's also pure and honest.

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SpheresOfBalance
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Post by SpheresOfBalance » Thu Apr 28, 2016 8:31 pm

henry quirk wrote:Of course you can have a gee-tar in a socialism!

First, you must apply with the local Bureau of Music for a license to use (but never own) a gee-tar, and simultaneously file a request for (musical) apitude testing.

If you pass the test (given six months to a year after making the request), and if your bent is in the direction of the gee-tar, you can expect to recieve your very own (but not really yours) gee-tar two to five years after filing for your use-license.

The license can be revoked at any time, by any high ranking party member, for any (or, no) reason at all. Also, you may be required to play the gee-tar here or there at the direction of high ranking party members (and, if you're a pretty girl or boy, you may have other 'duties' to perform).

'tis the will of 'the people'.
I'd say your version is a pretty dismal view. Quite probably fueled by fear. Then again could it be anything else? (<- Rhetorical) Of course I have a version that's quite different, that actually promotes everyone's growth! As of course it should be!

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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by Nick_A » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:57 am

Gary
Can this "disconnect" between the interests of the whole and the interests of the few be completely explained in terms of propaganda? If so, how can the few manage to keep almost EVEYRONE in line? Or how is it that a system can be completely dominated by the few?
Socialism is inpracticle because it gets in the way of the dominant motive within society: the need to establish prestige. The concept of equality furthered by socialism and the need for prestige don’t mix. Once a person understands why prestige is the dominant motive it opens the mind to what can further cooperation at the expense of prestige.

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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by Walker » Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:00 pm

Whatever was right was short-lived until the O-P-M ran out.

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Gary Childress
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by Gary Childress » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:16 pm

Walker wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:00 pm
Whatever was right was short-lived until the O-P-M ran out.
I assume OPM stands for "other people's money"?

Assuming the above; money is an abstraction and worthless until it can be connected to either labor or else products of labor. So what I perceive you really saying is that you disapprove of some disproportionately living off the labor of others. Is that an accurate assessment?

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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by Walker » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:13 pm

Yes. Hear the play on sound?

It means that if it’s too good to be true, then it probably isn’t.

davidm
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by davidm » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:07 pm

I just started reading this thread, so forgive me for responding to old posts, but … good gawd. So much stupid bullshit from bobevenson, for example.
Gary Childress wrote:
Sat Apr 23, 2016 7:09 pm

I'm not sure that was Darwin's intent, though, and I believe evolutionary theory has since moved on from such oversimplifications. For example altruism is a very powerful mechanism in a species and, though it may not directly benefit the individual practicing it, may be of enormous benefit to the welfare of the species over all. Human social organization is much more complex than a simplistic "rat race" between individuals vying for individual survival.

I don't have any children, nor do I plan to. I don't think that makes me somehow "deficient". I can still live a perfectly good life and contribute to the general welfare despite the fact that I won't have any progeny.
Fitness has a very specific meaning in evolution. The main point, though, is that its meaning is descriptive and not normative. It describes how populations (not individuals!) evolve; it does not prescribe anything. Please do not think that Darwin or any biologist is implying that people who do not have offspring are “unfit” in some judgmental sense. Evolution isn’t even about individuals, only about populations. Incidentally, the phrase “survival of the fittest” is from Spencer, not Darwin.

See here, for example.
By 'fittest', of course, Spencer and Darwin didn't have in mind the commonly used meaning of the word now, that is, the most highly trained and physically energetic. The 'fittest' referred to here are those animals which are the most suited to their environment, that is, those which are best fitted to survive.
Some of the fittest organisms in the biosphere are parasites — which, I gather, certain people in this thread would equate to poor people. That shows the utter bankruptcy of their stupid analogy. (Actually, all extant species can be defined as fittest, but since 99 percent of all species that have ever existed have gone extinct, it follows that “fittest” can and will become “less fit” relative to other survivors over time. And it’s worth repeating again that “fitness” is a metric of populations and not individuals.

The main point here is that evolution also has nothing to say about personal moral behavior or how societies or economies should be constructed; it does not in any way, shape, or form imply the superiority of capitalism over socialism.

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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by davidm » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:11 pm

Oh, good, a quick glance upthread shows that Ayn Rand has entered the discussion. :lol:

davidm
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by davidm » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:14 pm

bobevenson wrote:
Sat Apr 23, 2016 9:19 pm
Gary Childress wrote:Many people have followed the Golden Rule and done a lot of good for society. Many people have not and done a lot of malice for society.
My point is that looking out for yourself, the driving force of evolution, is more closely tied to capitalism than socialism. ¿Entiende usted, señor?
This is not the driving force of evolution. You have no idea what you're talking about.

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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by davidm » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:16 pm

bobevenson wrote:
Sat Apr 23, 2016 9:41 pm
Gary Childress wrote:In short I don't see how it's accurate to say that capitalism helps people look out for themselves more so than socialism.
Socialists want to take money out of your wallet to give to somebody else. That goes against capitalism and evolution itself!
It's clear, in the first three pages of this thread, that you don't understand a single thing about evolution.

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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by bobevenson » Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:07 pm

Perhaps, but I know an awful lot about socialism, which, of course, is especially awful.

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