~ The Case For Socialism ~

[henry quirk]

SoB,

You got a rare and wonderous talent for missing a point, for misinterpreting perspectives, and for vomiting up horse manure.

[SpheresOfBalance]

As long as there are finite resources, there will be someone who doesn't get their resource necessities met.

That's life guys. Suck it up.

This isn't entirely true. It's a balance between supply and demand. The population has exploded recently in large part because of increased production, particularly of food. So many more people could be fed if we cut back on waste and banned gorcery stores and other food suppliers from throwing out perfectly good food and stopped subsidizing the shit out of corn, and especially if we grew less livestock (the amount of feed required to make equivalent calories of meat is insane, along with the amount of methane they create in the digestive process, on top of the amount of forrests that are cleared for grazing land). We could easily support 9+ billion people on this planet. With genetically engineering to make crops more robust we could support even more.

"In 1989 a genetically engineered brand of L-tryptophan, a common dietary supplement, killed 37 Americans and permanently disabled or afflicted more than 5,000 others with a potentially fatal and painful blood disorder, eosinophilia myalgia syndrome (EMS), before it was recalled by the Food and Drug Administration."

"In 1994, the FDA approved the sale of Monsanto's controversial GE recombinant Bovine Growth Hormone (rBGH)-injected into dairy cows to force them to produce more milk- even though scientists warned that significantly higher levels (400-500% or more) of a potent chemical hormone, Insulin-Like Growth Factor (IGF-1), in the milk and dairy products of injected cows, could pose serious hazards for human breast, prostate, and colon cancer."

"In 1998, heretofore undisclosed Monsanto/FDA documents were released by government scientists in Canada, showing damage to laboratory rats fed dosages of rBGH. Significant infiltration of rBGH into the prostate of the rats as well as thyroid cysts indicated potential cancer hazards from the drug."

"The European Union has had a ban in place since 1994. Although rBGH continues to be injected into 4-5% of all US dairy cows, no other industrialized country has legalized its use."

I guess that about covers it!

[SpheresOfBalance]

Each system works for someone. All systems have their victims. Such is true of the life-system itself, of which political and economic systems are a subset. As long as there are finite resources, there will be someone who doesn't get their resource necessities met.

That's life guys. Suck it up.

Your words matter not, you're not really here, you were never born; remember?

Those last words of yours, coming from a guy that believes such as yourself about your existence, seems kinda contradictory.

God, are you that fucking stupid? I exist, idiot, and never claimed otherwise. Holy Jesus! Show me where I ever said that. I can wait.

That you didn't get it is no surprise!

[SpheresOfBalance]

SoB,

You got a rare and wonderous talent for missing a point, for misinterpreting perspectives, and for vomiting up horse manure.

Your slander speaks more of your inability to combat my argument than it does me. Or is your mind simply limited. Is it that you just don't get it?

You've been speaking out against rules, I'm just wondering how far it goes. Keep in mind that yours are rules too!

[henry quirk]

"You've been speaking out against rules"

No. I'm speaking out against unneeded, unwanted (by me, at least), direction and control; direction and control designed to benefit the directors and controllers, not the directed and controlled.

#

"Keep in mind that yours are rules too!"

The only 'rules' I've promoted are 'mind your own business and keep your hands to yourself'.

[SpheresOfBalance]

"You've been speaking out against rules"

No. I'm speaking out against unneeded, unwanted (by me, at least), direction and control; direction and control designed to benefit the directors and controllers, not the directed and controlled.

#

"Keep in mind that yours are rules too!"

The only 'rules' I've promoted are 'mind your own business and keep your hands to yourself'.

You know we're a lot alike and then we're not. I totally understand your position, but my argument stands.

Synonyms for direction
(noun) management: control, guidance, leadership, order, administration, charge, command, government, oversight, superintendence, supervision

Synonyms for rule
(noun) standard, principle of behavior: decree, guideline, law, order, precedent, regulation, ruling, statute, test, aphorism, apothegm, assize, axiom, basis, canon, command, commandment, criterion, decorum, dictum, direction, edict, etiquette, formula, fundamental, gnome, guide, keynote, keystone, maxim, model, moral, ordinance, precept, prescription, propriety, regimen, tenet, truism, brocard, chapter and verse, decretion, no-no's, the book, the numbers

You don't like their rules, only ever yours! And this is true of many, you're not alone. The question is, why can't we agree on any particular rule? And the answer is, people support the rules that they believe support them. Our beliefs support our psyches. Sometimes our psyches try and make up for something of the past, such that sometimes we're actually irrational in terms of what is really best for the individual and all others, though we may not understand it. So knowledge, thus ignorance comes into play. But fear is the biggest player of them all, as it's the longest lived bit of knowledge, dating back to our origin! Survival!

Sorry to hear of your food poisoning. I had it once when much younger, it was so bad that I believe if I had a case as severe today, it would literally kill me; It almost did then. The only thing I was puking up in the final hours was yellow liquid, straight bile, a kind of translucent yellow chemical tasting liquid. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy! I could only crawl to the bathroom, as I wasn't strong enough to stand. I hope you're feeling better, and STOP EATING ROAD KILL! (Just being silly)

[henry quirk]

As awful as this last bout was, it was nuthin' compared to an episode a few years back. I was certain I was a dead man...hell, I wanted to 'be' dead, that's how awful I felt.

[BigWhit]

If anything S.o.B you've only proved that the FDA isn't doing it's job.

[SpheresOfBalance]

If anything S.o.B you've only proved that the FDA isn't doing it's job.

I wouldn't say only. I least I've believed for some time that I've found evidence that they're paid to do the job of serving those that sign their checks. They actually serve the economy, money, at the slow untraceable expense of those individuals already weak that succumb to the poisons they say are safe. But then the poison will eventually take out the stronger ones as well. Let's not forget that it also proves the main point I was attempting to make, that GMO's have caused deaths and sickness, and probably will in the future, as no human is perfect. Nature on the other hand has never "accidentally" created a poison apple, squash, pea, ear of corn, etc.

[Obvious Leo]

Nature on the other hand has never "accidentally" created a poison apple, squash, pea, ear of corn, etc.

Actually, since you seem disinclined to include homo sapiens as a part of "nature", then "nature" didn't create any of the above. Every plant which you list here was genetically engineered by man, as was almost every single plant and animal we eat.

[BigWhit]

+1 to Leo

Not to mention that nature has produced a number of things that are poisonous to humans, among other animals.

I'm not saying any genetic modification is beneficial, but we must not make the mistake of assuming every genetic modification is harmful. GMOs are not inherently dangerous just because the genes were modified in a lab instead of through selective breeding. DNA is DNA.

[Obvious Leo]

+1 to Leo

Not to mention that nature has produced a number of things that are poisonous to humans, among other animals.

I'm not saying any genetic modification is beneficial, but we must not make the mistake of assuming every genetic modification is harmful. GMOs are not inherently dangerous just because the genes were modified in a lab instead of through selective breeding. DNA is DNA.

Naturally this is the point I was making. DNA is simply a molecule which encodes for the manufacture of proteins in cellular metabolism. When we change the DNA we change the protein it encodes for, and thus the phenomic structure of the entire organism, but to suggest that it is safe to do this when we don't know what the outcome will be and yet unsafe to do this when we know a little about what the outcome might be is a proposition which fails the test of logic. This is not to say that we shouldn't be extremely cautious with such knowledge because in the words of Alexander Pope a little learning can be a dangerous thing. However once the knowledge genie is out of the bottle it will never be stuffed back in and using a dodgy argument to support a case of such profound significance is never going to be helpful to the public debate.

In fact the most serious concern about GMOs relates more directly to the OP. That we as humans have acquired the knowledge and the technology to determine the biological future of our biosphere is an established fact and simply wishing this fact away will inevitably do more harm than good. The real question then becomes this: Should such knowledge be the property of corporations seeking to pursue a commercial agenda or should such knowledge be the common property of all mankind? Which of these alternatives is the safer?

[BigWhit]

I think patenting a genetic code is absurd

[Arising_uk]

I think patenting a genetic code is absurd

I agree, in fact patents themselves are becoming a hindrance.

[Obvious Leo]

I think patenting a genetic code is absurd

It's also rather like trying to plug a house-sized hole in the dyke with a little boy's finger. We live in a world where that which is conceivable is achievable by whoever has the will and the resources to achieve it. We either suck it up and learn how to deal with it or we allow the foxes to take over the supervision of the hen-house.