A portrait of reality

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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uwot
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Re: A portrait of reality

Post by uwot »

Greta wrote:
uwot wrote:...Berkeley points out that any story that is consistent with the evidence could be true. The problems only really arise when people commit to a particular story ...
'Problems' for whom? Commitment to a story is a time-honoured way of living a life, so there are many reflexive and shallow theists and atheists who seem to have no problem, having settled the major existential issues in their own minds and moved on with life, as they'd see it.
There is nothing intrinsically wrong with believing any story you like; the problems arise because of the because bit you left out: "...because there are a huge number of humans who despite being grown ups, hate anyone who tells them that they are wrong." I entirely agree that the vast majority of people have subscribed to some tale that settles the major existential issues. The majority of decent people who just want to get on with life are not the problem. It is the arseholes who exploit a belief that make the problems.
Impenitent
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Re: A portrait of reality

Post by Impenitent »

uwot wrote:
Greta wrote:
uwot wrote:...Berkeley points out that any story that is consistent with the evidence could be true. The problems only really arise when people commit to a particular story ...
'Problems' for whom? Commitment to a story is a time-honoured way of living a life, so there are many reflexive and shallow theists and atheists who seem to have no problem, having settled the major existential issues in their own minds and moved on with life, as they'd see it.
There is nothing intrinsically wrong with believing any story you like; the problems arise because of the because bit you left out: "...because there are a huge number of humans who despite being grown ups, hate anyone who tells them that they are wrong." I entirely agree that the vast majority of people have subscribed to some tale that settles the major existential issues. The majority of decent people who just want to get on with life are not the problem. It is the arseholes who exploit a belief that make the problems.
we believe the planet is warming

obey

-Imp
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Greta
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Re: A portrait of reality

Post by Greta »

uwot wrote:
Greta wrote:
uwot wrote:...Berkeley points out that any story that is consistent with the evidence could be true. The problems only really arise when people commit to a particular story ...
'Problems' for whom? Commitment to a story is a time-honoured way of living a life, so there are many reflexive and shallow theists and atheists who seem to have no problem, having settled the major existential issues in their own minds and moved on with life, as they'd see it.
There is nothing intrinsically wrong with believing any story you like; the problems arise because of the because bit you left out: "...because there are a huge number of humans who despite being grown ups, hate anyone who tells them that they are wrong." I entirely agree that the vast majority of people have subscribed to some tale that settles the major existential issues. The majority of decent people who just want to get on with life are not the problem. It is the arseholes who exploit a belief that make the problems.
My point was that, irrational existential beliefs are often not a problem for the person holding them, they are often more of a problem for others, eg. persecution, interference with education and public policy.
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Greta
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Re: A portrait of reality

Post by Greta »

Impenitent wrote:we believe the planet is warming

obey
Yes, how ludicrous to believe that carbon dioxide could hold heat in to the atmosphere. Only God can do that.

Yikes.
uwot
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Re: A portrait of reality

Post by uwot »

Greta wrote:My point was that, irrational existential beliefs are often not a problem for the person holding them, they are often more of a problem for others, eg. persecution, interference with education and public policy.
I agree. In fact I thought I already had.
seeds
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Re: A portrait of reality

Post by seeds »

Greta wrote:
seeds wrote:
Greta wrote: Basically, I see planets, moons, stars, black holes and galaxies as living entities. I don't think that "life started" with abiogenesis, rather that that event marked a change in its nature.
It kind of makes the idea of the Mars rover, sifting through the Martian soils in the hope of discovering life, seem a bit ironic, no?

Because if what you and I believe is true, then not only is everything the rover touches - alive, likewise, the rover itself is alive (in the deeper context).
Not wishing to be contrary but I'd say it's not ironic because researchers have been much enthused about signs of what could be called geological life on Mars, past and present - atmosphere, dust devils, vulcanism, flowing water and glaciers and so forth. They often casually refer to planets. moons and stars as 'dead" or "alive" in clear recognition of their systematisation.
It’s okay for us to be contrary, but let’s buck the trend of this forum and always try to be nice about it. :D

When you say:
Greta wrote: I see planets, moons, stars, black holes and galaxies as living entities.
...and when I say:
seeds wrote: ...(suns, planets, water, sand, molecules, electrons, etc.) are literally “alive” as is suggested in the concept of Panpsychism...
...something tells me that you and I have a completely different interpretation of what it means for the phenomena mentioned above to be “living entities.”

Of course you do not have to agree with my assessment, however, once again I suggest that just as the fabric of our dreams is saturated with our very own life essence, likewise, so is the fabric of the universe saturated with the essence of life in a similar fashion...

...(hence that being the source of abiogenesis as proffered earlier).

Therefore, is “irony” not the right choice of words when referring to researchers attempting (and failing) to find “traces” of life (past or present) anywhere in the universe when, in theory, there is absolutely nothing (in all of reality) that is not alive in one context or another?
_______
uwot
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Re: A portrait of reality

Post by uwot »

seeds wrote:It’s okay for us to be contrary, but let’s buck the trend of this forum and always try to be nice about it. :D
What a good idea.
ken
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Re: A portrait of reality

Post by ken »

seeds wrote:
Therefore, is “irony” not the right choice of words when referring to researchers attempting (and failing) to find “traces” of life (past or present) anywhere in the universe when, in theory, there is absolutely nothing (in all of reality) that is not alive in one context or another?
_______
I see the irony and also find it humorous when human human beings go looking for life when everywhere one looks there is life.

Even the buildings and furniture humans create can be seen to be living things in two ways. 1. As those things we create age, they also decay. Decaying is a part of living and being alive. 2. Ater those things have decayed past a certain useable date for human beings they end up becoming trash, garbage, and rubbish and as such become pollution. Just like the (untouched by human) world (generally known as the natural world) is a living thing, that unpolluted living world is being destroyed by the pollution riddled world human beings are creating now. The rivers, air, wind, and land that each have an effect on each other create the living organism that we human beings now thrive in. But the very living thing that has allowed us humans to evolve into existance we are changing by our greedy creative ways. This is changing the way of life on earth. Thes living world will continue but just in differing ways. The more pollution we create here on earth, the more life changes also.

Some people may not see the things that we create as being living things. Some would also not see other planets, stars, galaxies as being living things also, but that is just because of the length they are looking for. For example bacteria or an insect that lives only a very relatively short time compared to the average human may not see the human being as being a living thing, especially if that bacteria or insect only comes into existence and lives for only a very few short hours or minutes and while they are alive the human being is asleep at that time. The lifeless looking limbs of the human body may appear to be dead but the human being is really alive.

The same goes with planets. Some people only see them for a relatively very short period and as such only see them as dead things, but really they are all alive. They are just changing in shape and form at different rates, but always all the time. One example is earth itself, if we look at the deserts and barron lands some might think and say that earth is dead. But when we look at wave and wind swept coastlines and/or volcanic activity we can see an earth appearing much more alive and living. The organism of earth is alive, just like all other planets are. Just the rate of change is different.

Other than change itself how else do we really define 'living and being alive'?
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Greta
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Re: A portrait of reality

Post by Greta »

uwot wrote:
Greta wrote:My point was that, irrational existential beliefs are often not a problem for the person holding them, they are often more of a problem for others, eg. persecution, interference with education and public policy.
I agree. In fact I thought I already had.
Sorry, yes, I too often fall into the bleeding obvious. I guess the interesting aspect is that identifying with a religion (or nationality etc) means favouring one's own at the expense of outsiders. So it's a problem for those with broader sympathies.
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Greta
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Re: A portrait of reality

Post by Greta »

seeds wrote:... I suggest that just as the fabric of our dreams is saturated with our very own life essence, likewise, so is the fabric of the universe saturated with the essence of life in a similar fashion...

...(hence that being the source of abiogenesis as proffered earlier).

Therefore, is “irony” not the right choice of words when referring to researchers attempting (and failing) to find “traces” of life (past or present) anywhere in the universe when, in theory, there is absolutely nothing (in all of reality) that is not alive in one context or another?
_______
That's my intuition too. Yet only biology is formally deemed to be "alive" as such, despite the evidence of multitudes of living systems on almost every scale of reality.

It seems to me that the human journey has lead from animalistic in-the-moment solipsism to broader identifications (with some backward steps along the way, eg. the dark ages). Once it was believed that not all humans were fully human and, by inference, fully conscious. It's also taken centuries for some societies to appreciate that other animals are much conscious and intelligent than previously assumed.

he reticence you detect in my replies only comes out of respect for the science. Studies of abiogenesis and non-human intelligence have already made us aware of non living chemicals with surprisingly lifelike behaviour and hitherto unrealised cognition in non human animals. It seems likely to me that these fields will continue to blur the boundaries.
Impenitent
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Re: A portrait of reality

Post by Impenitent »

Greta wrote:
Impenitent wrote:we believe the planet is warming

obey
Yes, how ludicrous to believe that carbon dioxide could hold heat in to the atmosphere. Only God can do that.

Yikes.
how ludicrous indeed...

why haven't you stopped exhaling for the good of the planet?

-Imp
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Greta
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Re: A portrait of reality

Post by Greta »

Impenitent wrote:
Greta wrote:
Impenitent wrote:we believe the planet is warming

obey
Yes, how ludicrous to believe that carbon dioxide could hold heat in to the atmosphere. Only God can do that.

Yikes.
how ludicrous indeed...

why haven't you stopped exhaling for the good of the planet?
Okay, you have issues. Noted.
uwot
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Re: A portrait of reality

Post by uwot »

Right; I know I keep saying it, but this really is very close to the final product. It has been extensively revised to conform to a portrait format, so it'll be more like a Beano annual.
Any help weeding out typos and glitches, or any suggestions will be gratefully received.
Cheers
Will
http://willijbouwman.blogspot.co.uk
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Arising_uk
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Re: A portrait of reality

Post by Arising_uk »

uwot wrote:...Ah, now, logic. I'm not a great logician, I think logic is massively overrated and only really of use to computer scientists (yay for them) and dreary 'analytic' philosophers who are usually buffoonishly pedantic, religious nuts or both; ...
Oi!! :)

"“Modern logic… has the effect of enlarging our abstract imagination, and providing an infinite number of possible hypotheses to be applied in the analysis of any complex fact. In this respect it is the exact opposite of the logic practised by the classical tradition. In that logic, hypotheses which seem prima facie possible are professedly proved impossible, and it is decreed in advance that reality must have a certain character. In modern logic, on the contrary, while the prima facie hypotheses as a rule remain admissible, others, which only logic would have suggested, are added to our stock, and are very often found indispensable if a right analysis of the facts is to be obtained. The old logic put thought in fetters, while the new logic gives it wings.” B. Russell.

https://philosophynow.org/issues/120/Be ... _Something

p.s.
I think you need some kind of ending or closure or something at the end. It feels odd in some way I can't put my finger on.
Nick_A
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Re: A portrait of reality

Post by Nick_A »

Arising wrote:

“Modern logic… has the effect of enlarging our abstract imagination, and providing an infinite number of possible hypotheses to be applied in the analysis of any complex fact. In this respect it is the exact opposite of the logic practised by the classical tradition. In that logic, hypotheses which seem prima facie possible are professedly proved impossible, and it is decreed in advance that reality must have a certain character. In modern logic, on the contrary, while the prima facie hypotheses as a rule remain admissible, others, which only logic would have suggested, are added to our stock, and are very often found indispensable if a right analysis of the facts is to be obtained. The old logic put thought in fetters, while the new logic gives it wings.” B. Russell.

This reads like a text on how to make a porno flick that will sell as art.
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