The Theory of Evolution - perfect?

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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Londoner
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Re: The Theory of Evolution - perfect?

Post by Londoner »

PauloL wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:02 pm That's a very good question and I'd like to have an answer. You don't just need any cell, but a cell complex enough for lifelong autonomy and to replicate without any errors. And yet, perhaps, it must allow for diversification so that in the end you don't have one cell, but many different complex cells that can replicate without errors.

If you have an answer, please let me know and we'll win a Nobel prize if you wish to share.
My question was what you meant. Personally, I do not see that there is any special difficulty about cells that needs resolving. To write of 'errors' or 'complexity' is to write of how we humans see things, i.e. 'errors' assumes purpose, which is something we ascribe to objects, not a quality of the object. 'Complexity' describes a problem for us, of comprehension when we try to understand something collectively, again it is not a quality of the object.

To put it another way, every state of the universe is equally 'complex' (or equally simple) in that it is also the product of the same set of laws. We are particularly interested in life, so we demand some sort of special explanation for it, but it is no more special than the rings of Saturn, or the carbon cycle, or black holes, or anything else.
It's funny how one person can explain a priori how you have complex life on earth in the 19th century based on some empirical observations by traveling to exotic locations and yet you can't explain the birth of the very first cell in the 21st century.
Surely a problem would only arise if we have some aspect of cell chemistry that is inexplicable; that is contrary to the rules of chemistry and physics that operate everywhere else. But I do not see that there is; the explanation of the evolution of cells you can find in the text books seems perfectly satisfactory.
davidm
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Re: The Theory of Evolution - perfect?

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PauloL wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:02 pm
Londoner wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:49 am
Thanks for your question, even if I'm sorry that you're using my "P.S.", where I tell you I'm not a Creationist.

That's a very good question and I'd like to have an answer. You don't just need any cell, but a cell complex enough for lifelong autonomy and to replicate without any errors. And yet, perhaps, it must allow for diversification so that in the end you don't have one cell, but many different complex cells that can replicate without errors.
And yet, errors of replication happen all the time. They're called mutations.
It's funny how one person can explain a priori how you have complex life on earth in the 19th century based on some empirical observations by traveling to exotic locations and yet you can't explain the birth of the very first cell in the 21st century.
The theory of evolution is not an an a priori theory.

How life arose on earth is abiogenesis, which is not part of the theory of evolution.

You do realize that no biologist suggests that the current complex cell one day poofed into existence out of some primordial ooze?

Do you know the difference between prokaryotes and eukaryotes?
davidm
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Re: The Theory of Evolution - perfect?

Post by davidm »

PauloL wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:32 am I think that the theory of evolution is far from perfect. It assumes a full cell simply exists and then starts evolving. This is the first, if not the fatal, flaw.
It does not "assume a full cell simply exists." The cells that make up humans did not even appear in the fossil record until about 1.7 billions years ago. Before that, there were the far simpler prokaryotes, which first appeared far earlier, about 3.5 billion years ago.

Cells do not evolve. Populations evolve.

You might want to do so me research before posting on these matters.
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PauloL
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Re: The Theory of Evolution - perfect?

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Londoner wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:23 pm
davidm wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:36 pm
.




I'm sorry for your impolite comments and for your arrogance in calling people ignorant.

Mutations are mostly deleterious and even predictable. Some happen with different frequencies, others don't. This can't explain evolution.

Look at Mycobacterum tuberculosis. You have a wild strain sensitive to antibiotics and highly virulent. Then you start treating a tuberculous person and a resistant strain shows up. Voilá! You have evolution. Wrong. The bacterium has many strains, including resistant ones. These can only abound if challenged by an antibiotic, as they are less virulent. That's why multi-resistant strains of Koch's bacillus attack mostly immune-suppressed people. Remove the antibiotic and the wild strain reappears. Voilá! You'll see exactly the same mutations appear and disappear in USA, South Africa, or Mongolia, so don't expect this to be random events, unless you accept that the antibiotic generates teleologically the mutations. This is one of the illusions of evolution so dear to Darwinian evolutionists.

Abiogenesis is not part of Evolution. Great! I can project an airplane to the slightest detail. I just haven't projected one so far because I don't know the first step.

Unfortunately, Darwinian evolutionists don't have an alternate scientific theory, and so use unscientific argumentation, including insults, when challenged with their own flaws.




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Londoner
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Re: The Theory of Evolution - perfect?

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PauloL wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:47 pm Mutations are mostly deleterious and even predictable. Some happen with different frequencies, others don't. This can't explain evolution.
Evolution does not suggest that mutations are purposeful, nor beneficial as such.

If a disease occurred that wiped out all humans who did not have red hair, then we could then say that the gene for red hair was 'beneficial', that humans had 'evolved' to have red hair, but it would be the disease that made that variation beneficial.
Abiogenesis is not part of Evolution. Great! I can project an airplane to the slightest detail. I just haven't projected one so far because I don't know the first step.
Abiogenesis is not part of evolution only because evolution describes species, and species only arise once life has originated. But the question of how life arose is not contradictory to evolution, any more than biology is contradictory to chemistry.

I do not understand the reference to an airplane.

I am still not clear what your position is. As I asked before, is it that there something about life that is inexplicable by science? If so, what? If not, where is the problem?
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PauloL
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Re: The Theory of Evolution - perfect?

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Londoner wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:50 pm
[...]

If a disease occurred that wiped out all humans who did not have red hair, then we could then say that the gene for red hair was 'beneficial', that humans had 'evolved' to have red hair, but it would be the disease that made that variation beneficial.
You call wiping out all humans who did not have red hair evolution? Evolution is expected to explain the existence of red haired humans in the first instance, I think.
Londoner wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:50 pmAbiogenesis is not part of evolution only because evolution describes species, and species only arise once life has originated.
Evolution describes species? Again, evolution is expected to explain the existence of species in the first instance.
Londoner wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:50 pmBut the question of how life arose is not contradictory to evolution, any more than biology is contradictory to chemistry.
Of course Biology is by no means contradictory to Chemistry, but I can't say the same about the contradiction of Evolution to the origin of life. If everything evolves swiftly by selection, tell me how mineral matter evolved to the first cell apt to evolve.
Londoner wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:50 pm I do not understand the reference to an airplane.
I also don't understand how on earth can evolution be explained to the slightest detail, except for the appearance of one cell.
Londoner wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:50 pmI am still not clear what your position is.
Do I have to have a position? Are we at the church discussing religion?
Londoner wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:50 pmAs I asked before, is it that there something about life that is inexplicable by science? If so, what? If not, where is the problem?
The one thing explicable by science is the formation of the cell on the other hand, and evolution on the other. Darwinian evolutionism is a paranoid illusion in my opinion.
Last edited by PauloL on Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
davidm
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Re: The Theory of Evolution - perfect?

Post by davidm »

PauloL wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:47 pm
Londoner wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:23 pm
davidm wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:36 pm
I'm sorry <snip the rest of your garbage>
Thanks for apologizing.

Just to make one quick note, since I'm not going to waste time on an ignoramus like you: to say that most mutations are deleterious is just to say that they are weeded out by natural selection -- precisely as the theory predicts and has been verified. The evidence seems to show, however, that most mutations are neutral and propagate through drift.

I like how you failed to acknowledge my educating you on cells and evolution in general. You're just a typical self-important, ignorant troll. Ho-hum.

What a surprise.
davidm
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Re: The Theory of Evolution - perfect?

Post by davidm »

PauloL wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:03 pm
Evolution describes species? Again, evolution is expected to explain the existence of species in the first instance.
No, it isn't. Go read a book or take a class for once in your life. People like you is why we have Trump as president. The triumph of the idiocracy, of which you are an exemplar.
davidm
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Re: The Theory of Evolution - perfect?

Post by davidm »

PauloL wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:03 pm
The one thing explicable by science is the formation of the cell on the other hand, and evolution on the other. Darwinian evolutionism is a paranoid illusion in my opinion.
:lol:

Could you even be more incoherent? What does the above even mean?

Why do you post here or anywhere? What is the point of propounding your profound ignorance in public? Why do you want to embarrass yourself like this? I'm truly curious!
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PauloL
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Re: The Theory of Evolution - perfect?

Post by PauloL »

davidm wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:16 pm
You seem offended without a reason, otherwise you'd report me instead of insulting people just for the exhaustion of your argumentation.
davidm
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Re: The Theory of Evolution - perfect?

Post by davidm »

PauloL wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:22 pm
davidm wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:16 pm
You seem offended without a reason, otherwise you'd report me instead of insulting people just for the exhaustion of your argumentation.
I'm offended by your ignorance, yes, but not by you. I introduced you to neutral evolution, prokaryotes and eukaryotes, the difference between evolutionary theory and abiogenesis, and other stuff too. All you can do is whine and attack me while parading your ignorance.

Why would I would report you? The rules here don't require that you have a functioning brain.
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PauloL
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Re: The Theory of Evolution - perfect?

Post by PauloL »

davidm wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:30 pm
I answered your argumentation and expected you to counter-argument instead of insulting. Philosophy is about argumentation, not insulting.
davidm
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Re: The Theory of Evolution - perfect?

Post by davidm »

PauloL wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:41 pm
davidm wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:30 pm
I answered your argumentation and expected you to counter-argument instead of insulting. Philosophy is about argumentation, not insulting.
You answered me? Did you mean your stupid post about Mycobacterum tuberculosis?
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PauloL
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Re: The Theory of Evolution - perfect?

Post by PauloL »

davidm wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:05 pm
You answered me? Did you mean your stupid post about Mycobacterum tuberculosis?
You're kindly invited for your best counter-argumentation on my "stupid post about Mycobacteium tuberculosis". I hope you didn't exhaust it here.
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PauloL
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Re: The Theory of Evolution - perfect?

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You're invited to read an elegant argument by a respected neo-Darwinian on Popper's epistemology:
The neo-Darwinian theory of evolution is also clearly falsifiable because we can postulate theories which, if true, would render neo-Darwinian theory superfluous. The most obvious alternative theory is the Lamarckian one. If it were true that modifications acquired during the life of an organism could become hereditary, many features of organisms would evolve by the direct influence of the environment, and natural selection would not play a major guiding role in adaptation. (Futuyma, 1983, p 172)
For the most obvious alternate theory to neo-Darwinian's, Lamarck's (author's words) and his brilliant conclusion that modifications acquired during life of an organism CAN'T become hereditary, you have this evidence from the prestigious scientific magazine Nature Neuroscience 17-2(2014) by Moshe Szyf:
Lamarck revisited: epigenetic inheritance of ancestral odor fear conditioning

A study shows that when mice are taught to fear an odor, both their offspring and the next generation are born fearing it. The gene for an olfactory receptor activated by the odor is specifically demethylated in the germ line and the olfactory circuits for detecting the odor are enhanced.
So, Futuyma is not only tautological in his argumentation, he also offers lies as evidence, that Lamarckian theory isn't true. Life is much more complex than neo-Darwinians can think.

Neo-Darwinians are in Plato's cavern devising complex theories about the world supported by all they can see: shadows.
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