Simulation theory and detecting virtual machines

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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Arising_uk
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Re: Simulation theory and detecting virtual machines

Post by Arising_uk » Thu May 11, 2017 10:43 pm

Impenitent wrote: I understood what you meant, and you cannot prove the "senses" are of an external world...

-Imp
I think I can. This language we are talking in cannot be created by a solipsist, I think, ergo there is another and if there is another then there is an external world. Now whether what we sense is a simulation or an emulation is by-the-by I think.

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Noax
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Re: Simulation theory and detecting virtual machines

Post by Noax » Fri May 12, 2017 12:27 am

Arising_uk wrote:I think I can. This language we are talking in cannot be created by a solipsist, I think, ergo there is another and if there is another then there is an external world.
I have argued along similar lines. It makes for weaker evidence of the existence of said 'another' but the language itself is evidence of something external, be it the world I sense or the world that is feeding fiction to the BiV. A solipist with no reality outside of mind has no need for language such as the sort used on this forum.
Now whether what we sense is a simulation or an emulation is by-the-by I think.
If it was either of these, what would be the thing being simulated (or emulated)? If that more real (or native) thing exists, why the need to simulate it? If it doesn't exist, in what way is it a simulation?

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Re: Simulation theory and detecting virtual machines

Post by Impenitent » Fri May 12, 2017 11:16 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
Impenitent wrote: I understood what you meant, and you cannot prove the "senses" are of an external world...

-Imp
I think I can. This language we are talking in cannot be created by a solipsist, I think, ergo there is another and if there is another then there is an external world. Now whether what we sense is a simulation or an emulation is by-the-by I think.
again, the external world is not proven...

I think therefore there is something that thinks... thanks rene

I use communal language therefore the language must be returned by another "thinker" in the "community" of speakers... really?

(god must guarantee this of course and thereby deny the evil demon (e.g. biv) that is vexing rene)

dismissing the brain in a vat argument by claiming that it is "by-the-by" does not disprove it

-Imp

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Arising_uk
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Re: Simulation theory and detecting virtual machines

Post by Arising_uk » Sat May 13, 2017 1:17 am

Impenitent wrote:again, the external world is not proven... ...
I think an external world is if you accept the premise that a solipsist cannot create the language we are currently using.
I think therefore there is something that thinks... thanks rene
Agreed, although I think it stronger, "I am a thing that thinks".
I use communal language therefore the language must be returned by another "thinker" in the "community" of speakers... really?
Yes, although I think it might not matter if it is a thinker but it must exist other than oneself.
(god must guarantee this of course and thereby deny the evil demon (e.g. biv) that is vexing rene)
I think if he'd thought about it from the language point of view he'd not have needed 'god'.
dismissing the brain in a vat argument by claiming that it is "by-the-by" does not disprove it

-Imp
Since I already think the Body is a 'brain-in-a-vat' I'm not sure what there is to disprove?

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Re: Simulation theory and detecting virtual machines

Post by Impenitent » Sat May 13, 2017 12:00 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
Impenitent wrote:again, the external world is not proven... ...
I think an external world is if you accept the premise that a solipsist cannot create the language we are currently using.

why? your communication with the evil demon continues...

just because you think you are not the only mind in the universe - speaking with another "mind" doesn't prove the existence of the other "mind" as existing in the empirically "experienced" world...

you have "sensory" experience, nothing more... from where it occurs cannot be demonstrated.

I think therefore there is something that thinks... thanks rene
Agreed, although I think it stronger, "I am a thing that thinks".

a thing... what thing is this? the thing that is being deceived into thinking it thinks?


I use communal language therefore the language must be returned by another "thinker" in the "community" of speakers... really?
Yes, although I think it might not matter if it is a thinker but it must exist other than oneself.

so you agree that the universe consists of yourself and the evil demon.

(god must guarantee this of course and thereby deny the evil demon (e.g. biv) that is vexing rene)
I think if he'd thought about it from the language point of view he'd not have needed 'god'.

and the evil demon has convinced you that through his whispers, the universe is certain?

dismissing the brain in a vat argument by claiming that it is "by-the-by" does not disprove it

-Imp
Since I already think the Body is a 'brain-in-a-vat' I'm not sure what there is to disprove?
again, the external world is not proven...

-Imp

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Re: Simulation theory and detecting virtual machines

Post by Arising_uk » Mon May 15, 2017 2:06 am

Impenitent wrote:why? your communication with the evil demon continues...

just because you think you are not the only mind in the universe - speaking with another "mind" doesn't prove the existence of the other "mind" as existing in the empirically "experienced" world...
Didn't say it did? Just said it's in a world external to me.
you have "sensory" experience, nothing more... from where it occurs cannot be demonstrated.
It can be demonstrated that it doesn't originate with me.
a thing... what thing is this? the thing that is being deceived into thinking it thinks?
I don't think one can be deceived that one is thinking. Unless of course you make thinking to mean something other than thinking.
so you agree that the universe consists of yourself and the evil demon.
No, there could be loads of other things out there. I agree that there's me and because I have this language there is at least one other. Because there is one other there is somewhere else other than me so there is a world external to me.
and the evil demon has convinced you that through his whispers, the universe is certain?
Just certain that I am and there is an other other than me.
again, the external world is not proven...
You'd have to prove to me that a language such as I'm speaking and thinking in can be produced by a solipsist before I could agree to this.

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Re: Simulation theory and detecting virtual machines

Post by Impenitent » Mon May 15, 2017 9:56 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
Impenitent wrote:why? your communication with the evil demon continues...

just because you think you are not the only mind in the universe - speaking with another "mind" doesn't prove the existence of the other "mind" as existing in the empirically "experienced" world...
Didn't say it did? Just said it's in a world external to me.
you have "sensory" experience, nothing more... from where it occurs cannot be demonstrated.
It can be demonstrated that it doesn't originate with me.

you "know" that your senses are triggered externally... no possibility of hallucination... no possibility of dreaming...

a thing... what thing is this? the thing that is being deceived into thinking it thinks?
I don't think one can be deceived that one is thinking. Unless of course you make thinking to mean something other than thinking.

I don't think so either, but who knows what an omnipotent evil demon could do...

so you agree that the universe consists of yourself and the evil demon.
No, there could be loads of other things out there. I agree that there's me and because I have this language there is at least one other. Because there is one other there is somewhere else other than me so there is a world external to me.

again, you agree that the universe consists of yourself and the evil demon... (it is the "necessary" one other)


and the evil demon has convinced you that through his whispers, the universe is certain?
Just certain that I am and there is an other other than me.

right, you and the evil demon


again, the external world is not proven...
You'd have to prove to me that a language such as I'm speaking and thinking in can be produced by a solipsist before I could agree to this.
no one claims that you are a solipsist, merely that you and the evil demon are the sum of existence

-Imp

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Re: Simulation theory and detecting virtual machines

Post by Arising_uk » Tue May 16, 2017 12:37 am

Impenitent wrote: no one claims that you are a solipsist, merely that you and the evil demon are the sum of existence
-Imp
Can't claim this as don't(can't?) know. But let's say it's true, then there is an external world, as I exist with this language and I can't speak this language without an other so if an other exists then there is an external world. Is it the one I perceive? Can't tell, could all be a sim or an em(which is an interesting question I think as the difference could tell me about whether the external world I perceive is the 'same' as the external one - internally). But the demon is in the same boat, as if it has the language first and the only reason I am speaking it is that it has programmed it into me then where did it know it from?(just a thought)
p.s.
Sorry didn't see your other replies straight away as you have them roughly the same colour within the quote. Will read and comment soon.

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Re: Simulation theory and detecting virtual machines

Post by Arising_uk » Tue May 16, 2017 2:11 am

Impenitent wrote:you "know" that your senses are triggered externally... no possibility of hallucination... no possibility of dreaming...
Of course but if any of them have words in them then I know I'm not alone. :)
I don't think so either, but who knows what an omnipotent evil demon could do...
Even the omnipotent are constrained by Logic.
again, you agree that the universe consists of yourself and the evil demon... (it is the "necessary" one other)
Good enough for me as just trying to escape Descartes solipsism but without using a 'God'.
right, you and the evil demon ...
Right, me and an external world.

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Re: Simulation theory and detecting virtual machines

Post by Impenitent » Tue May 16, 2017 9:35 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
Tue May 16, 2017 2:11 am
Impenitent wrote:you "know" that your senses are triggered externally... no possibility of hallucination... no possibility of dreaming...
Of course but if any of them have words in them then I know I'm not alone. :)

how? belief in language does not necessitate the existence of anything...


I don't think so either, but who knows what an omnipotent evil demon could do...
Even the omnipotent are constrained by Logic.

how do you know this? because logic dictates it?

again, you agree that the universe consists of yourself and the evil demon... (it is the "necessary" one other)
Good enough for me as just trying to escape Descartes solipsism but without using a 'God'.
right, you and the evil demon ...
Right, me and an external world.
Rene wasn't escaping solipsism (he was placating the church)...

no, you haven't shown the existence of an external "world" but an external evil demon...

-Imp

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Re: Simulation theory and detecting virtual machines

Post by Arising_uk » Wed May 17, 2017 1:43 am

Impenitent wrote:how? belief in language does not necessitate the existence of anything...
Yes it does, unless you are claiming that this language we are speaking with can be created by a solipsistic entity?
how do you know this? because logic dictates it?
No, because if you are a thing then Logic applies to you.
Rene wasn't escaping solipsism (he was placating the church)...
No he wasn't. He was stuck at 'I am'.
no, you haven't shown the existence of an external "world" but an external evil demon.
Who lives where?

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Re: Simulation theory and detecting virtual machines

Post by Impenitent » Thu May 18, 2017 12:47 am

Arising_uk wrote:
Wed May 17, 2017 1:43 am
Impenitent wrote:how? belief in language does not necessitate the existence of anything...
Yes it does, unless you are claiming that this language we are speaking with can be created by a solipsistic entity?

there is language for unicorns, does that necessitate their existence?
how do you know this? because logic dictates it?
No, because if you are a thing then Logic applies to you.

logic is a language game, nothing more... the "external" world (which you have yet to prove exists) would be outside of names one applies to it...
Rene wasn't escaping solipsism (he was placating the church)...
No he wasn't. He was stuck at 'I am'.

yes, he was... Rene saw what the church did to Galileo and Rene's geometry ran counter to church teaching
no, you haven't shown the existence of an external "world" but an external evil demon.
Who lives where?
Who is on first

-Imp

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Re: Simulation theory and detecting virtual machines

Post by Arising_uk » Thu May 18, 2017 2:58 am

Impenitent wrote:there is language for unicorns, does that necessitate their existence?
Don't know, I'm not a unicorn. But if one shows up and can talk then sure.
logic is a language game, nothing more... the "external" world (which you have yet to prove exists) would be outside of names one applies to it...
I disagree with this understanding of Logic, I'm with Boole and others in this respect. As whilst it can be used for propositions it's also the rule of thought and reality and occurs because there are things so Logic arises, no things no Logic.
yes, he was... Rene saw what the church did to Galileo and Rene's geometry ran counter to church teaching
Not my reading, could be true, but for me he used 'God' as a way to get out from the solipsism that his 'I Am' left him in.
Who is on first.
Then he's someplace.
p.s.
I'd be interested in why you think his geometry ran counter to the Church's teachings?

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Re: Simulation theory and detecting virtual machines

Post by Impenitent » Fri May 19, 2017 3:07 am

Arising_uk wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 2:58 am
Impenitent wrote:there is language for unicorns, does that necessitate their existence?
Don't know, I'm not a unicorn. But if one shows up and can talk then sure.
logic is a language game, nothing more... the "external" world (which you have yet to prove exists) would be outside of names one applies to it...
I disagree with this understanding of Logic, I'm with Boole and others in this respect. As whilst it can be used for propositions it's also the rule of thought and reality and occurs because there are things so Logic arises, no things no Logic.

we agree to disagree

yes, he was... Rene saw what the church did to Galileo and Rene's geometry ran counter to church teaching
Not my reading, could be true, but for me he used 'God' as a way to get out from the solipsism that his 'I Am' left him in.
Who is on first.
Then he's someplace.
p.s.
I'd be interested in why you think his geometry ran counter to the Church's teachings?
I misspoke - rationalism not geometry

http://www.fsmitha.com/h3/descartes.htm

-Imp

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Re: Simulation theory and detecting virtual machines

Post by Arising_uk » Sun May 21, 2017 4:02 am

Impenitent wrote:we agree to disagree
In what sense, you think there can be Logic without things?

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