Science , Fiction or Fact

[chaz wyman]

Yes Chaz I can prove god doesn't exist ,
can you understand my posts , the previous post asked you a lot of questions and I get back , the same lame question you have been asking for ages now ,
you didn't address any of my questions , so lets try again,
WHAT WOULD YOU CONSIDER PROOF ?
WOULD YOU RECOGNIZE PROOF IF YOU SAW IT??
IF YOU BELIEVE THERE IS NO PROOF THEN NO PROOF WILL PERSUADE YOU
So you tell me Chaz ,
I can tell you what I would consider proof of god ,
god would have to make an appearance , national TV would do ,
so you tell me ,
what would you accept as proof there is no god ,
I'm presuming you will say there is nothing I could say
that you would consider proof , because you don't want to there to be proof ,
you don't believe proof exists , so why keep asking
for an answer you don't want to hear ,,????

Your own criteria of proof will be fine for me.
So go a head.
Since you have proved to yourself the non-existence of god, then I will be happy to examine your own route to the problem.
You ought to realise that proving a thing exists is not the same as proving a thing to not-exist.
So - over to you. We can use your won criteria.

[chaz wyman]

Yes Chaz I can prove god doesn't exist ,
can you understand my posts , the previous post asked you a lot of questions and I get back , the same lame question you have been asking for ages now ,
you didn't address any of my questions , so lets try again,
WHAT WOULD YOU CONSIDER PROOF ?
WOULD YOU RECOGNIZE PROOF IF YOU SAW IT??
IF YOU BELIEVE THERE IS NO PROOF THEN NO PROOF WILL PERSUADE YOU
So you tell me Chaz ,
I can tell you what I would consider proof of god ,
god would have to make an appearance , national TV would do ,
so you tell me ,
what would you accept as proof there is no god ,
I'm presuming you will say there is nothing I could say
that you would consider proof , because you don't want to there to be proof ,
you don't believe proof exists , so why keep asking
for an answer you don't want to hear ,,????

Your own criteria of proof will be fine for me.
So go ahead.
Since you have proved to yourself the non-existence of god, then I will be happy to examine your own route to the problem.
You ought to realise that proving a thing exists is not the same as proving a thing to not-exist.
So - over to you. We can use your won criteria.

[Godfree]

Yes Chaz I can prove god doesn't exist ,
can you understand my posts , the previous post asked you a lot of questions and I get back , the same lame question you have been asking for ages now ,
you didn't address any of my questions , so lets try again,
WHAT WOULD YOU CONSIDER PROOF ?
WOULD YOU RECOGNIZE PROOF IF YOU SAW IT??
IF YOU BELIEVE THERE IS NO PROOF THEN NO PROOF WILL PERSUADE YOU
So you tell me Chaz ,
I can tell you what I would consider proof of god ,
god would have to make an appearance , national TV would do ,
so you tell me ,
what would you accept as proof there is no god ,
I'm presuming you will say there is nothing I could say
that you would consider proof , because you don't want to there to be proof ,
you don't believe proof exists , so why keep asking
for an answer you don't want to hear ,,????

Your own criteria of proof will be fine for me.
So go ahead.
Since you have proved to yourself the non-existence of god, then I will be happy to examine your own route to the problem.
You ought to realise that proving a thing exists is not the same as proving a thing to not-exist.
So - over to you. We can use your won criteria.

I have been using my criteria all the time , and you don't/won't/can't get it
You seem to understand science ,???
is science not enough for you ,???
science has yet to find a single piece of evidence that would support the idea of a god being real ,
why is that not good enough for you Chaz ,
are you suspicious of science , do you trust they have it right ,,
or are you like a christian and presume science is wrong ,??
everything about the god idea is impossible ,,!!!
unless your prepared to throw science/reality out the window ,
do you understand the term impossible ,,???
to prove something is possible , is not proving it is real ,
it is just accepting it is possible , god is not possible ,
do you imagine god is possible , and I would like an answer to that one CHaz,
I repeat , do you think god is possible ,????
if your answer is yes , you are an agnostic not an Atheist ,
if you accept god is not possible , what the hell are we arguing about ,!!!!

[chaz wyman]

Yes Chaz I can prove god doesn't exist ,
can you understand my posts , the previous post asked you a lot of questions and I get back , the same lame question you have been asking for ages now ,
you didn't address any of my questions , so lets try again,
WHAT WOULD YOU CONSIDER PROOF ?
WOULD YOU RECOGNIZE PROOF IF YOU SAW IT??
IF YOU BELIEVE THERE IS NO PROOF THEN NO PROOF WILL PERSUADE YOU
So you tell me Chaz ,
I can tell you what I would consider proof of god ,
god would have to make an appearance , national TV would do ,
so you tell me ,
what would you accept as proof there is no god ,
I'm presuming you will say there is nothing I could say
that you would consider proof , because you don't want to there to be proof ,
you don't believe proof exists , so why keep asking
for an answer you don't want to hear ,,????

Your own criteria of proof will be fine for me.
So go ahead.
Since you have proved to yourself the non-existence of god, then I will be happy to examine your own route to the problem.
You ought to realise that proving a thing exists is not the same as proving a thing to not-exist.
So - over to you. We can use your won criteria.

I have been using my criteria all the time , and you don't/won't/can't get it

Nothing you have said has even begun to look like an attempt at proof.
You have nothing yet. I'm still waiting.

You seem to understand science ,???
is science not enough for you ,???
science has yet to find a single piece of evidence that would support the idea of a god being real ,

That would depend on what you mean by god; real and supporting.
There is no scientist born that shares your naive assertion that you have disproven a negative.


why is that not good enough for you Chaz ,

Because absence of evidence is not evidence of non existence.


are you suspicious of science , do you trust they have it right ,,

Science is a method of describing the universe. Science cannot answer why there is a universe.
The history of science is the history of one set of descriptive paradigms replacing an older set with a better one. This is an ongoing project.
To declare science to be 'right' will always be a mistake.
They declared Aristotle's science 'right' once and that stalled the progress of science for 100s of years.
We have every right to expect that science 200 years hence will be better and show a deeper description of the universe than we have now.
That means definitively that science is not yet 'right' completely. So no, science is not 'right'.
Besides that, science is only one way of looking at the universe.


or are you like a christian and presume science is wrong ,??

I am not a Christian , and I ought to add all the Christians I know do not think science is wrong. Not one of them.

everything about the god idea is impossible ,,!!!

It is impossible to say that with certainty.

unless your prepared to throw science/reality out the window ,
Nope
do you understand the term impossible ,,???

Yes, it is impossible to disprove a negative. Your belief system is impossible.

to prove something is possible , is not proving it is real ,
it is just accepting it is possible , god is not possible ,

You have no right to say that. You cannot possibly know.

do you imagine god is possible , and I would like an answer to that one CHaz,

Do I image god is possible? - NO. That is not the same as proving it.
To use Shakespeare " there are more things in heaven and earth, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
I do not and cannot know, everything there is to know.
And I certainly do not want to build a system of believe upon a thing that it is impossible to prove.
I leave that sort of idiocy up to Theists.


I repeat , do you think god is possible ,????
See above. I am an atheist, so I do not consider the idea of god to be worthy of my imaginings.

if your answer is yes , you are an agnostic not an Atheist ,

An agnostic is a particular class of Atheist. I am not one of them. I do not even accept the possibility of god in any sense.


if you accept god is not possible , what the hell are we arguing about ,!!!

We are arguing about the idiotic claim you have that you can prove god does not exist, and that you are stupid enough to build a system of belief about that.
I'm puzzled how it is that you still do not seem to know what the argument is about.



!

[Godfree]

Chaz , god is not possible you say ,,???
then would you say it is impossible ,,???
if so , isn't that all I',m saying .god is impossible ,
and we can use science to argue why god is impossible ,
what it is about the god concept that simply can't be true ,
using reality as we know it .
The religious amongst us will say ,
god is real , you just have to accept that it's beyond our comprehension ,
the great unknowable ,!!!! and this is why I'm adamant there is proof,
we will never move off this spot ,
if we accept that we will never know some things ,
and some things are beyond our comprehension ,
science doesn't say god is impossible for irrational illogical reasons ,

no not like the rationale for god existing ,
so I find it strange that we have been able to argue this point ,
for so long without you assuming I get your point ,
I just happen to disagree ,
Science has a few facts , and lots of theories ,
so a lot of life as about probability rather than 100% certainty ,
if your going to wait for 100% certainty before you move off your spot ,
me thinks you will never move ,,!!!!
and rather than be stuck at this moment in time ,
I would rather be trying to find the future and the new reality ,
to boldly go where no man has gone before,
to quote Cpt Kirk,
so I'm like a pioneer ,and your still clinging to the homeland,
trusting in the hope that the majority must be right
so again Chaz ,
what would you consider proof ,,,????
you can't answer that one ,
because you can't imagine it ,
not because you are correct about you literal interpretation ,
but because you are educated , and have been trained ,
to think in ways that may not be ,100% ,
but have been accepted science and logic ,
the bbt not 100% , the theory of relativity , not 100%,
a lot of the knowledge we accept today as real
is less than 100% proven
but you can't take my statement we can and have proven it ,,???

[chaz wyman]

Chaz , god is not possible you say ,,???
I think so.
then would you say it is impossible ,,???
No, thinking a thing and proving it is something else.
if so , isn't that all I',m saying .god is impossible ,
No, you are saying you can prove it and keep telling you that you cannot.
and we can use science to argue why god is impossible ,
No, you can demonstrate why certain qualities that are sometimes claimed for god are natural.
what it is about the god concept that simply can't be true ,
using reality as we know it .
That's a laugh - you think you know reality?
The religious amongst us will say ,
god is real , you just have to accept that it's beyond our comprehension ,
the great unknowable ,!!!! and this is why I'm adamant there is proof,
Rubbish!
we will never move off this spot ,
if we accept that we will never know some things ,
and some things are beyond our comprehension ,
science doesn't say god is impossible for irrational illogical reasons ,
God as nothing whatever to say about god one way or the other. But many scientists greater than you have said the science is a decription of God logic; Newton and Descartes among them.
no not like the rationale for god existing ,
so I find it strange that we have been able to argue this point ,
for so long without you assuming I get your point ,
I just happen to disagree ,
About reason?
You can 'disagree' all you like, but it is obvious you are wrong to do so and you have offered nothing in your defense.
Science has a few facts , and lots of theories ,
so a lot of life as about probability rather than 100% certainty ,
if your going to wait for 100% certainty before you move off your spot ,
me thinks you will never move ,,!!!!
Science can offer 100% certainty within strictly defined parameters.
That is how it works and that is how it has nothing to say about god.
and rather than be stuck at this moment in time ,
I would rather be trying to find the future and the new reality ,
to boldly go where no man has gone before,
to quote Cpt Kirk,
Don't hold your breath!
so I'm like a pioneer ,and your still clinging to the homeland,
trusting in the hope that the majority must be right
I am way ahead of you. You are still too scared to let go of theism.
I was where you are a few years ago. Then I grew up and have no need for god or its refutation.
God no longer figures in my estimation of reality - that is the TRUE consequence of Atheism, where you are still clinging to the apron strings of Mummy, telling her she is wrong and LET ME GO. Boo Hoo!!!
so again Chaz ,
what would you consider proof ,,,????

Like I have said times and again, you are making the claim. Show me your proof!
The point about not thinking it is possible to prove means that I do not know what would constitute proof.
If I knew that I'd know yes or no. So I am willing to discuss yours.
BUT THE FACT IS YOU DON"T HAVE THE FIRST IDEA WHAT IS PROOF.
you can't answer that one ,
I've done so on at least 3 occasions, you donkey!
because you can't imagine it ,
not because you are correct about you literal interpretation ,
but because you are educated , and have been trained ,
to think in ways that may not be ,100% ,
but have been accepted science and logic ,
the bbt not 100% , the theory of relativity , not 100%,
a lot of the knowledge we accept today as real
is less than 100% proven
but you can't take my statement we can and have proven it ,,???

So when the fuck are you going to show me the money?

[Godfree]

[quote="chaz wyman"][quote="Godfree"]Chaz , god is not possible you say ,,???
I think so.
then would you say it is impossible ,,???
No, thinking a thing and proving it is something else.

Chaz ,,,we don't have to go far to get a difference of terms ,
not possible ,= impossible , I thought you were the one who took things literally ,impossible no more requires proof than , not possible ,
I don't get how you see them as not one and the same ,????
you think gods not possible , but you can't prove it ,
gods impossible but you can't prove it , Whats the difference ,,???
so you don't feel we have 100% proven god does not exist ,
I have asked you before ,
what probability or % would you put on there being a god ,
do you think science is 99.9... sure but just can't be 100%certain,,???
how close are we to saying we can prove it ,
what are the questions in your mind that have not been answered ,
to your satisfaction , because I'm already satisfied ,
so what do you feel has not been answered,?????

[chaz wyman]

Chaz , god is not possible you say ,,???
I think so.
then would you say it is impossible ,,???
No, thinking a thing and proving it is something else.

Chaz ,,,we don't have to go far to get a difference of terms ,
not possible ,= impossible , I thought you were the one who took things literally ,impossible no more requires proof than , not possible ,

The case you are claiming to make is that you can disprove god. I say it is impossible to do so.
In answer to is god not possible. In most cases yes, but that makes you take on the burden of another persons definition. It IS possible to define god in such a way as to make prove 'him' true or false impossible.

I don't get how you see them as not one and the same ,????
See above. We can solve this problem is you show me how you think you have disproved god.
WHilst you persist in failing in this; I can only conclude that you can't do it. This supports my statement you it is not possible to disprove god, and trying to do so makes you beholden and dependant on other people's conception of god.

you think gods not possible , but you can't prove it ,
DUH no
gods impossible but you can't prove it , Whats the difference ,,???

Probability of course, and depends on what god is. But to disprove it I would have to start by giving credence and possibility to a thing I think is crap.

so you don't feel we have 100% proven god does not exist ,
dah, no. I have no idea what you mean by god - so I cannot really comment.
I have asked you before ,
what probability or % would you put on there being a god ,
do you think science is 99.9... sure but just can't be 100%certain,,???
Depends - what do you mean 'god"?
how close are we to saying we can prove it ,
0%. We are 0% to proving it true or false
what are the questions in your mind that have not been answered ,
What the fuck do you mean 'god'?
to your satisfaction , because I'm already satisfied ,
so what do you feel has not been answered,?????
Nearly everything.
The history of knowledge and science has produced a world where we tend to think that we know nearly everything. But with each new generation the previous paradigm looks like we knew nothing. So I have no idea how close we might be to knowing all we can, because no one knows what is left to be discovered. But I do know that old versions of god are shown to be more and more ridiculous. But I also know that versions of God have been re-worked to avoid disproval.
It seems to me that we have barely scratched the surface.

[Godfree]

Barely scratched the surface Chaz ,
yes I would say humanity is still in it's infancy ,
there are a lot of children out there,
but we have answered most of the questions regarding the existence ,
of the bibles view of heaven and god ,
we no longer think there is a big bearded guy in the sky ,
living in the clouds and throwing down the odd lightening bolt ,
just to keep us on our toes .
Yes religion will try to adjust to the new knowledge as it emerges,
try and evolve along with knowledge , but is that what we want ,
Surely you as an Atheist would prefer a society that embraces reality ,
whats wrong with the idea of giving people science and reality to,
get dominated by , instead of religion and madness,
havn't we at the end of the day got a better society ,
if they are into reality , instead of clinging on to this delusion ,,!!!

[chaz wyman]

Barely scratched the surface Chaz ,

Bloody Hell are you still here?


yes I would say humanity is still in it's infancy ,
there are a lot of children out there,
but we have answered most of the questions regarding the existence ,
of the bibles view of heaven and god ,
we no longer think there is a big bearded guy in the sky ,
living in the clouds and throwing down the odd lightening bolt ,
just to keep us on our toes .
Yes religion will try to adjust to the new knowledge as it emerges,
try and evolve along with knowledge , but is that what we want ,
Surely you as an Atheist would prefer a society that embraces reality ,

And what the fuck do you think that is??
I believe in Free thinking. That is what made Atheism possible.
But it is about not imposing your shit on other people.
So you are on the wrong side.


whats wrong with the idea of giving people science and reality to,
get dominated by , instead of religion and madness,

How about go and fuck yourself?
Science gave us racism and eugenics; Social Darwinism and the atomic bomb.
Science is not enough. It is not qualified alone to understand human need.




havn't we at the end of the day got a better society ,
if they are into reality , instead of clinging on to this delusion ,,!!!

You are just as deluded.

[Godfree]

I still find that strange Chaz ,
that you claim to be an Atheist but you don't like the idea of Atheism becoming mainstream or popular like a religion , but I called my Atheist society ,
The Save The World Club ,
main aim to save the world from the madness that is religion ,,!!!
but the NZ government like you said "fuck off"
so we are left with the status quo , nothing changes , for how long,???
how long will society be stuck in this moment in time ,,???
if you can't come up with a better plan of what to replace religion with ,
I suggest you havn't really thought about it ,
You say an Atheist wanting to replace religion is just as deluded as the religious ,
that says to me you can't tell the difference ,
you can't see that one is mental illness , and one is sane ,
one will keep us entrenched in madness ,
and one will heal our sick planet of religious righteous war mongers ,
I see the world without religion as a big improvement ,
the resources being wasted on religion would achieve a lot more without having to build huge stone temples , and pay pedophile priests to,
wank on about rubbish ,
how you don't see a bunch of free thinkers sitting around debating reality as better than this religious rubbish we have now is beyond me ,,???
do you have a authority allergy or something,,???
I'm not going to become Hitler because I want to start a club,,??
You have imagined a lot of rules for my club ,
you have imagined it is a dictatorship telling you what to believe ,
thats pretty stupid of you Chaz ,
why do you always imagine the worst,????

[chaz wyman]

I still find that strange Chaz ,
that you claim to be an Atheist but you don't like the idea of Atheism becoming mainstream or popular like a religion , but I called my Atheist society ,

That is because you are a dull donkey.
You are just replacing one form of oppression for another.
The reason I became an Atheist is because of the mental slavery of religion


The Save The World Club ,
<snip>I'm not going to become Hitler because I want to start a club,,??
You have imagined a lot of rules for my club ,
you have imagined it is a dictatorship telling you what to believe ,
thats pretty stupid of you Chaz ,
why do you always imagine the worst,????

Because that is what belief systems always do.

[Godfree]

I still find that strange Chaz ,
that you claim to be an Atheist but you don't like the idea of Atheism becoming mainstream or popular like a religion , but I called my Atheist society ,

That is because you are a dull donkey.
You are just replacing one form of oppression for another.
The reason I became an Atheist is because of the mental slavery of religion


The Save The World Club ,
<snip>I'm not going to become Hitler because I want to start a club,,??
You have imagined a lot of rules for my club ,
you have imagined it is a dictatorship telling you what to believe ,
thats pretty stupid of you Chaz ,
why do you always imagine the worst,????

Because that is what belief systems always do.

And you can't imagine one that doesn't ,,I presume ,,??
thats pretty narrow minded of you Chaz
Part of my belief system is that reality is an individual experience ,
in what way does that control you or what you think ,
See the problem Chaz is that you have been telling me what my Atheist Club/religion was going to be like ,
but you didn't ask you just assume ,
If you would prefer to have religion in control ,ie america ,
instead of a secular Atheist government ,
and the sad part is there isn't a good example to use ,
then thats your choice Chaz ,
I just can't see how you imagine that religion is going to,
give up power when they are getting so rich ,
if we don't make the effort and topple religion ,
it will sit at the top forever ,
old money protecting old money re-electing old money ,
you may think your fighting the noble/right fight,
but I see your just opting out of the fight ,
your saying I won't challenge religions place at the top of the pecking order,
but I will challenge any Atheist who wants to challenge religion,,?????

[SpheresOfBalance]

I still find that strange Chaz ,
that you claim to be an Atheist but you don't like the idea of Atheism becoming mainstream or popular like a religion , but I called my Atheist society ,

That is because you are a dull donkey.
You are just replacing one form of oppression for another.
The reason I became an Atheist is because of the mental slavery of religion


The Save The World Club ,
<snip>I'm not going to become Hitler because I want to start a club,,??
You have imagined a lot of rules for my club ,
you have imagined it is a dictatorship telling you what to believe ,
thats pretty stupid of you Chaz ,
why do you always imagine the worst,????

Because that is what belief systems always do.

And you can't imagine one that doesn't ,,I presume ,,??
thats pretty narrow minded of you Chaz
Part of my belief system is that reality is an individual experience ,
in what way does that control you or what you think ,
See the problem Chaz is that you have been telling me what my Atheist Club/religion was going to be like ,
but you didn't ask you just assume ,
If you would prefer to have religion in control ,ie america ,
instead of a secular Atheist government ,
and the sad part is there isn't a good example to use ,
then thats your choice Chaz ,
I just can't see how you imagine that religion is going to,
give up power when they are getting so rich ,
if we don't make the effort and topple religion ,
it will sit at the top forever ,
old money protecting old money re-electing old money ,
you may think your fighting the noble/right fight,
but I see your just opting out of the fight ,
your saying I won't challenge religions place at the top of the pecking order,
but I will challenge any Atheist who wants to challenge religion,,?????

But religion really has no power today like it did. The experts agree that it lost it in the latter 1800's. The 1900's and beyond, thus far, know no religious superiority, and I can't honestly see it regaining it's dominance. It's a has been, so why keep beating a dead horse?

It would seem you have a hard-on for religion, so I ask, were you once an alter-boy of a victim of a would be priest?

[chaz wyman]

I still find that strange Chaz ,
that you claim to be an Atheist but you don't like the idea of Atheism becoming mainstream or popular like a religion , but I called my Atheist society ,

That is because you are a dull donkey.
You are just replacing one form of oppression for another.
The reason I became an Atheist is because of the mental slavery of religion


The Save The World Club ,
<snip>I'm not going to become Hitler because I want to start a club,,??
You have imagined a lot of rules for my club ,
you have imagined it is a dictatorship telling you what to believe ,
thats pretty stupid of you Chaz ,
why do you always imagine the worst,????

Because that is what belief systems always do.

And you can't imagine one that doesn't ,,I presume ,,??

The noise of every dictator has that in his lips.

thats pretty narrow minded of you Chaz

No, the arrow mind is your as you wish to close down other people's minds.
Freethinking has always protected us from closed societies and closed minds, when they have been permitted to flourish.
"Stamping Out", all religion is like Orwell's view of the future;'imagine a boot crushing a face."

Part of my belief system is that reality is an individual experience ,
in what way does that control you or what you think ,

If that is REALLY the case then you cannot allow yourself the luxury to "Stamp Out religion".

See the problem Chaz is that you have been telling me what my Atheist Club/religion was going to be like ,
but you didn't ask you just assume ,
If you would prefer to have religion in control ,ie america ,
instead of a secular Atheist government ,

That is a fucking joke. If you were not so ignorant you would realise that the US was the first government that enshrined the separation of church and state. I'd rather stay in the UK where the religion is under the control of the state and thus take little part in governance.
The US is a good example of the sort of vision you have of the future, and it is a lesson that when you try to reject religion it ends up in control.
Your only next step to stamp it out is the take the route taken by Stalin.

and the sad part is there isn't a good example to use ,
Stalin matches your aims exactly.
then thats your choice Chaz ,
I just can't see how you imagine that religion is going to,
give up power when they are getting so rich ,
if we don't make the effort and topple religion ,
Yes, you could be quoting Stalin.
it will sit at the top forever ,
old money protecting old money re-electing old money ,
you may think your fighting the noble/right fight,
but I see your just opting out of the fight ,
your saying I won't challenge religions place at the top of the pecking order,
but I will challenge any Atheist who wants to challenge religion,,?????