All ontological arguments are wrong

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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bahman
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All ontological arguments are wrong

Post by bahman » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:52 am

All ontological arguments are wrong since we cannot be sure of existence of any being at all. The only certainty that we have is that experience exists.

AtariKo
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Re: All ontological arguments are wrong

Post by AtariKo » Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:22 pm

Not even your own existence? And why do we need certainty?

Impenitent
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Re: All ontological arguments are wrong

Post by Impenitent » Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:13 pm

bahman wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:52 am
All ontological arguments are wrong since we cannot be sure of existence of any being at all. The only certainty that we have is that experience exists.
certainty... the next moment is certainly not guaranteed

-Imp

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bahman
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Re: All ontological arguments are wrong

Post by bahman » Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:54 pm

AtariKo wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:22 pm
Not even your own existence?
Yes. I am only certain that I experience and content of my experience has sometime a thing so called "I".
AtariKo wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:22 pm
And why do we need certainty?
We need certainty in existence in order to start an ontological argument.

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bahman
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Re: All ontological arguments are wrong

Post by bahman » Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:59 pm

Impenitent wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:13 pm
bahman wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:52 am
All ontological arguments are wrong since we cannot be sure of existence of any being at all. The only certainty that we have is that experience exists.
certainty... the next moment is certainly not guaranteed

-Imp
We are either certain or not. We cannot be uncertain of certain or opposite.

AtariKo
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Re: All ontological arguments are wrong

Post by AtariKo » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:37 pm

Yes. I am only certain that I experience and content of my experience has sometime a thing so called "I".
If you’re certain that you experience, then you’re certain of you! I think, therefore I am! :D

Can you be certain of analytic or conceptual truths?

Impenitent
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Re: All ontological arguments are wrong

Post by Impenitent » Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:33 pm

bahman wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:59 pm
Impenitent wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:13 pm
bahman wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:52 am
All ontological arguments are wrong since we cannot be sure of existence of any being at all. The only certainty that we have is that experience exists.
certainty... the next moment is certainly not guaranteed

-Imp
We are either certain or not. We cannot be uncertain of certain or opposite.
one cannot be certain of future events; momentary certainty of the moment outside of the moment is no certainty

-Imp

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bahman
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Re: All ontological arguments are wrong

Post by bahman » Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:31 pm

AtariKo wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:37 pm
If you’re certain that you experience, then you’re certain of you! I think, therefore I am! :D
I have problem with that.
AtariKo wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:37 pm
Can you be certain of analytic or conceptual truths?
They are just content of my experience and they seem consistent.

AtariKo
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Re: All ontological arguments are wrong

Post by AtariKo » Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:04 am

I can’t be certain that “The beer is cold” if I’m not certain of the beer. Likewise, I can’t be certain that “I experience” if I’m not certain of I.

I don’t understand your response to my second question.

Also, doesn't your initial argument just beg the question? Might not the OA be the one exception to your claim that we can't be certain of any being's existence?

surreptitious57
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Re: All ontological arguments are wrong

Post by surreptitious57 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:08 pm

bahman wrote:
All ontological arguments are wrong since we cannot be sure of existence of any being at all

The only certainty that we have is that experience exists
That does not make them wrong just impossible to demonstrate

And how can you doubt your own existence but not the experiences you have

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bahman
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Re: All ontological arguments are wrong

Post by bahman » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:22 pm

Impenitent wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:33 pm
bahman wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:59 pm
Impenitent wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:13 pm


certainty... the next moment is certainly not guaranteed

-Imp
We are either certain or not. We cannot be uncertain of certain or opposite.
one cannot be certain of future events; momentary certainty of the moment outside of the moment is no certainty

-Imp
It depends how far is the future what is the situation etc. I however said something else.

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bahman
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Re: All ontological arguments are wrong

Post by bahman » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:27 pm

AtariKo wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:04 am
I can’t be certain that “The beer is cold” if I’m not certain of the beer. Likewise, I can’t be certain that “I experience” if I’m not certain of I.
"I" apparently is a construct of brain activity.
AtariKo wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:04 am
I don’t understand your response to my second question.
I am sorry that I cannot know how I can make it more clear than that. I cannot help it unless you help me.
AtariKo wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:04 am
Also, doesn't your initial argument just beg the question? Might not the OA be the one exception to your claim that we can't be certain of any being's existence?
No there is no begging the question. You will understand this if you understand what is subject of previous comment.

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bahman
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Re: All ontological arguments are wrong

Post by bahman » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:28 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:08 pm
bahman wrote:
All ontological arguments are wrong since we cannot be sure of existence of any being at all

The only certainty that we have is that experience exists
That does not make them wrong just impossible to demonstrate

And how can you doubt your own existence but not the experiences you have
You lose the axiom therefore you have to find another way to prove God.

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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: All ontological arguments are wrong

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:08 am

bahman wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:52 am
All ontological arguments are wrong since we cannot be sure of existence of any being at all. The only certainty that we have is that experience exists.
With that line of thinking, all arguments are wrong, period.

uwot
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Re: All ontological arguments are wrong

Post by uwot » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:48 am

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:08 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:52 am
All ontological arguments are wrong since we cannot be sure of existence of any being at all. The only certainty that we have is that experience exists.
With that line of thinking, all arguments are wrong, period.
Nah. Just underdetermined. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/scie ... rmination/

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