Indifference means that there is no God

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Indifference means that there is no God

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:31 am

davidm wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:21 am
This is not possible with God, whom no one has ever met.
Not so fast.

Moses thought He did. Isaiah thought he did. The disciples of Christ thought they did. John thought he did. Paul thought he did. And others claimed they did. But you say that none of them actually did.

What is your data justifying this firm conclusion ("not possible") of yours?

davidm
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Re: Indifference means that there is no God

Post by davidm » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:22 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:31 am
davidm wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:21 am
This is not possible with God, whom no one has ever met.
Not so fast.

Moses thought He did. Isaiah thought he did. The disciples of Christ thought they did. John thought he did. Paul thought he did. And others claimed they did. But you say that none of them actually did.

What is your data justifying this firm conclusion ("not possible") of yours?
Right. They all "thought" that they did.

Doesn't mean they actually did.

davidm
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Re: Indifference means that there is no God

Post by davidm » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:31 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:26 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:13 am
Think of two possible worlds, X and Y. God could be x or y but not both.
I think I see where you've gone wrong. But I want to be sure.

So give me any specific values for x and y, in the situation you suggest.
This means the chance of having God in a possible world is 50%.
If "God" means "Supreme" or "Maximally-Great" Being, then his existence in any possible world entails His necessary reality in this one. That's not 50%, but 100%.
This is correct. But ICan and I have gone around this before, with respect to Plantinga’s modal ontological argument, which purports to show that if God possibly exists, he necessarily exists. Which is true, if one uses “possible” in the modal sense and NOT in the natural-language sense. Plantinga conflated modal “possible” with natural-language “possible” and produced an utter botch of an argument. When I pointed this out to ICan, he refused to meet my obvious points and suggested instead that I take it up directly with Plantinga. Oh, well!

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bahman
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Re: Indifference means that there is no God

Post by bahman » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:14 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:26 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:13 am
Think of two possible worlds, X and Y. God could be x or y but not both.
I think I see where you've gone wrong. But I want to be sure.

So give me any specific values for x and y, in the situation you suggest.
This means the chance of having God in a possible world is 50%.
If "God" means "Supreme" or "Maximally-Great" Being, then his existence in any possible world entails His necessary reality in this one. That's not 50%, but 100%.

But that's a point we can look at later. For now, it seems you've made the mistake of thinking the Supreme Being has to be *within* a possible world...but we'll see when you give those values.
Suppose that God is in X. This means that the chance of having a God like that is equal to x/(X+Y)=1/2=50% where x=X=Y=1.

davidm
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Re: Indifference means that there is no God

Post by davidm » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:21 pm

bahman wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:14 am
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:26 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:13 am
Think of two possible worlds, X and Y. God could be x or y but not both.
I think I see where you've gone wrong. But I want to be sure.

So give me any specific values for x and y, in the situation you suggest.
This means the chance of having God in a possible world is 50%.
If "God" means "Supreme" or "Maximally-Great" Being, then his existence in any possible world entails His necessary reality in this one. That's not 50%, but 100%.

But that's a point we can look at later. For now, it seems you've made the mistake of thinking the Supreme Being has to be *within* a possible world...but we'll see when you give those values.
Suppose that God is in X. This means that the chance of having a God like that is equal to x/(X+Y)=1/2=50% where x=X=Y=1.
This reasoning doesn’t work for the omni god normally touted here. In the case of the omni god, if he exists at some possible world, he exists at all possible worlds (which isn’t the same thing as saying, “It is possible that God exists. Therefore, he exists”). Conversely, if he fails to exist at some possible world, then he fails to exist at all possible worlds. God either either necessarily exists or necessarily fails to exist. To say that God can exist at some possible worlds and not at others is to say that God it contingent, which is inconsistent with the asserted properties of the omni god.

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bahman
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Re: Indifference means that there is no God

Post by bahman » Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:52 pm

davidm wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:21 pm
bahman wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:14 am
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:26 am

I think I see where you've gone wrong. But I want to be sure.

So give me any specific values for x and y, in the situation you suggest.


If "God" means "Supreme" or "Maximally-Great" Being, then his existence in any possible world entails His necessary reality in this one. That's not 50%, but 100%.

But that's a point we can look at later. For now, it seems you've made the mistake of thinking the Supreme Being has to be *within* a possible world...but we'll see when you give those values.
Suppose that God is in X. This means that the chance of having a God like that is equal to x/(X+Y)=1/2=50% where x=X=Y=1.
This reasoning doesn’t work for the omni god normally touted here. In the case of the omni god, if he exists at some possible world, he exists at all possible worlds (which isn’t the same thing as saying, “It is possible that God exists. Therefore, he exists”). Conversely, if he fails to exist at some possible world, then he fails to exist at all possible worlds. God either either necessarily exists or necessarily fails to exist. To say that God can exist at some possible worlds and not at others is to say that God it contingent, which is inconsistent with the asserted properties of the omni god.
Consider X and Y as good and evil. God cannot be both. Could be? Must be?

thedoc
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Re: Indifference means that there is no God

Post by thedoc » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:21 pm

bahman wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:13 am
Think of two possible worlds, X and Y. God could be x or y but not both. This means the chance of having God in a possible world is 50%. There could be however one bahman in each possible world so the chance of having bahman could be 100%.
What is the basis for your claim that God cannot exist in both worlds or all worlds?

thedoc
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Re: Indifference means that there is no God

Post by thedoc » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:24 pm

davidm wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:22 am
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:31 am
davidm wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:21 am
This is not possible with God, whom no one has ever met.
Not so fast.

Moses thought He did. Isaiah thought he did. The disciples of Christ thought they did. John thought he did. Paul thought he did. And others claimed they did. But you say that none of them actually did.

What is your data justifying this firm conclusion ("not possible") of yours?
Right. They all "thought" that they did.

Doesn't mean they actually did.
And that doesn't prove anything, so the claim of "not possible" is not proven either way.

thedoc
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Re: Indifference means that there is no God

Post by thedoc » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:28 pm

bahman wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:52 pm
davidm wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:21 pm
bahman wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:14 am


Suppose that God is in X. This means that the chance of having a God like that is equal to x/(X+Y)=1/2=50% where x=X=Y=1.
This reasoning doesn’t work for the omni god normally touted here. In the case of the omni god, if he exists at some possible world, he exists at all possible worlds (which isn’t the same thing as saying, “It is possible that God exists. Therefore, he exists”). Conversely, if he fails to exist at some possible world, then he fails to exist at all possible worlds. God either either necessarily exists or necessarily fails to exist. To say that God can exist at some possible worlds and not at others is to say that God it contingent, which is inconsistent with the asserted properties of the omni god.
Consider X and Y as good and evil. God cannot be both. Could be? Must be?
It has been claimed that God created everything, and that would include both good and evil. What is the basis for your claim that God cannot be both good and evil?

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bahman
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Re: Indifference means that there is no God

Post by bahman » Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:12 pm

thedoc wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:28 pm
bahman wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:52 pm
davidm wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:21 pm


This reasoning doesn’t work for the omni god normally touted here. In the case of the omni god, if he exists at some possible world, he exists at all possible worlds (which isn’t the same thing as saying, “It is possible that God exists. Therefore, he exists”). Conversely, if he fails to exist at some possible world, then he fails to exist at all possible worlds. God either either necessarily exists or necessarily fails to exist. To say that God can exist at some possible worlds and not at others is to say that God it contingent, which is inconsistent with the asserted properties of the omni god.
Consider X and Y as good and evil. God cannot be both. Could be? Must be?
It has been claimed that God created everything, and that would include both good and evil. What is the basis for your claim that God cannot be both good and evil?
God is love.

thedoc
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Re: Indifference means that there is no God

Post by thedoc » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:42 pm

bahman wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:12 pm
thedoc wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:28 pm
bahman wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:52 pm


Consider X and Y as good and evil. God cannot be both. Could be? Must be?
It has been claimed that God created everything, and that would include both good and evil. What is the basis for your claim that God cannot be both good and evil?
God is love.
Have you ever heard of "tough love" when someone does something that appears bad, but is really for the other person's good.

Dubious
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Re: Indifference means that there is no God

Post by Dubious » Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:06 am

bahman wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:12 pm
God is love.
Is that the same as "God is Great" even when he kicks your ass to perdition!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Indifference means that there is no God

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:17 am

bahman wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:48 pm
There is a simple fact, indifference, that there are tremendous, infinite for example, ways that God could look like. This means that the chance that one of these God could exist is rare, zero in case of infinite ways. Therefore there is no God.
God can be found in the point, as the point composes everything, is infinite and is the root of all objective and subjective axioms.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Indifference means that there is no God

Post by Immanuel Can » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:12 pm

davidm wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:22 am
Right. They all "thought" that they did.

Doesn't mean they actually did.
Maybe. But it doesn't prove the opposite either. And after all, even in a court of law or a matter of historical verification, human testimony is considered one form of datum. It is not all we have, but when it is offered it must be weighed rationally, and in view of the available facts; not just ignored.

If you're frank, what it actually means is that you are conceding that you have no clue at all whether or not they did. The reason you can't respond to my request is that, rather unsurprisingly, you absolutely have no objective data even to imply that they didn't mean what they said...you just arbitrarily choose to disregard their accounts...for reasons you'd have to explain, but no doubt will not.

Of course, while we have no reason to disbelieve your claim that you personally have had no such experience -- for had you had it, you would surely not take the cynical and non-evidentiary position upon which you're insisting -- that does not go one tiny step in the direction of giving us reason to think you know what you're talking about when you dismiss their accounts. So if you wanted anyone to have reason to believe you, you would surely need some stitch of evidence that they were deceived or not telling the truth.

Now again, what would your evidence in this case be?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Indifference means that there is no God

Post by Immanuel Can » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:16 pm

bahman wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:14 am
Suppose that God is in X. This means that the chance of having a God like that is equal to x/(X+Y)=1/2=50% where x=X=Y=1.
No, I want a real quantity to substitute for X. For if you understand algebra, you know that an X is a placeholder for a real quantity, like a 1 or a 25 or a 1,003, or whatever. If something real can't be plugged in and worked through, then the equation isn't an equation at all.

What is that real quantity or quality? What is the value of X, in reference to God? Put in anything you think works. You name it. I'll plug it into your syllogism for you, and we'll both see if the result makes any sense.

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