What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Lacewing
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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by Lacewing » Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:27 am

It's all made-up by different people in different locations and time periods with different agendas and fears to describe potential.
Last edited by Lacewing on Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:29 am

gaffo wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:59 am
"he" is They, and they have different names because there are many relgions and many devils (as there are Gods).

Vishnu is not YHWH - but both are "God" to those within their respective Religion, and the other is NOT GOD (i.e. the Hindu does not affirm YHWH as God while the Christian does the same WRT to Vishnu).

same rule applies to any "Devils".
And "division" isn't one function, or maybe better put: absence of function?

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bahman
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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by bahman » Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:14 pm

gaffo wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:55 am
bahman wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:21 pm
How could we know the truth through religion?
which "satan"?

there are many.

Belial, Satan, Ahraman, Azazal, Assmodious..............those named are all different entities of Evil with Western Religion.

how many more "satans" are there in Eastern*India -(Kali/etc)/Aztec/now lost Religions..................1000s.

so which "Satan" are you blaming for the corruption of the Religious (which religion?) Truth?
I think that there is one with only different masks.

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bahman
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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by bahman » Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:54 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:48 am
Free will is the ultimate act of generosity and means to truth, without it it goodness is tyranny.
What do you mean?
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:48 am
Because literal language does not contain the necessary multidimensional to express truth as literalism takes truth at a strict "face" value without allowing the possibility of any depth behind it. In these respect literalism fails as it contradicts its own terms for "literalism" as a logical height could only be justified through the vary same process of "imaging" (imagination) it argues against. Allegory and metaphor is the crystallization of knowledge through an "imaging" process and in these respect imagination (further observed as necessary within the scientific method) provides the boundaries for truth by allowing a multidimensional. Images and allegories are merely equations of pictorial structures that are rooted in platonic forms rooted in geometry.
So you are claiming, that God who is omniscient cannot convey the truth literally? Are you saying that it is logically impossible to tell the truth literally?

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:40 am

bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:54 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:48 am
Free will is the ultimate act of generosity and means to truth, without it it goodness is tyranny.
What do you mean?
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:48 am
Because literal language does not contain the necessary multidimensional to express truth as literalism takes truth at a strict "face" value without allowing the possibility of any depth behind it. In these respect literalism fails as it contradicts its own terms for "literalism" as a logical height could only be justified through the vary same process of "imaging" (imagination) it argues against. Allegory and metaphor is the crystallization of knowledge through an "imaging" process and in these respect imagination (further observed as necessary within the scientific method) provides the boundaries for truth by allowing a multidimensional. Images and allegories are merely equations of pictorial structures that are rooted in platonic forms rooted in geometry.
So you are claiming, that God who is omniscient cannot convey the truth literally? Are you saying that it is logically impossible to tell the truth literally?
Does literalism work? It has its place however Godel''s Incompleteness theorems give further evidence to its limits.

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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by -1- » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:34 pm

bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:14 pm
gaffo wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:55 am


which "satan"?

there are many.

Belial, Satan, Ahraman, Azazal, Assmodious..............
I almost hear Beavis and Butthead snickering... "He said ass..."

I used to prefer the expression Paul of the bible used: "arsenokoitei". But Assmodious really is the icing on the cake. (Pun intended.)

DPMartin
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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by DPMartin » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:53 pm

-1- wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:50 pm
DPMartin wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:30 am
(Is everything of God?)

nope not at all, if you make a thing, it doesn't mean its of you, like maybe a child or your words that are of you. but if you make a piece of furniture its not of you.

there is definitely a distinction.
Absolutely. There is a distinciton, but the distinction is not transferable from man to god.

Man makes a chair. Chair is not of man; it is also of wood, nails, upoholstery. Some of these (nails upholstery) are partly man=made, but their material (nail's iron) is god-made, and the wood is god-made. Man is god-made.

So... everything is god-made. There is not any ingredient in a chair or in anything else that is not god-made. There are many things in the world that are not man-made; but god created the universe from nothing. Before the universe, there was nothing; everything in it was god=made. Therefore the whole world is god made, therefore everything is of god.

Including Satan. Satan is very much god-made. Satan did not come into existence without god's creating it.
DPMartin wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:30 am
anyway
How is it that inclusive or all-inclusive is perceived as righteous, or good, and being excluded is evil?
How it can happen? It can happen because people are very dim.

Good deeds are done through us by god. Right?

Everything we do is from god.

Also what we brand as evil and people do is of god: murder. Burning the roast in the oven. Child-molestation comes from god. So does rape, both against male and female victims. Puking into your child's dirty diaper and forcing the baby to eat the mix comes from god.

I ain't kiddin'. All and everything comes from god, it can't be otherwise, since he invented and created everything.

(For the record: here in this text above I treated god as a given. From the point of view of the religious. I actually believe in no god(s).)

God made darkness, but darkness is not of God, is it? and you just said it "God made everything from nothing", and God is something correct? therefore everything God made isn't of Him.

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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by -1- » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:27 pm

DPMartin wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:53 pm
God made darkness, but darkness is not of God, is it? and you just said it "God made everything from nothing", and God is something correct? therefore everything God made isn't of Him.
You are right. I made a mistake, I should have said, "god made everything other than himself." So if you would please accept my upgrade in this fashion.

God made darkness..yes, was there darkness before he made it? Yes? No? If there was no darkness before god made it, then what else is it of? There were no other creators at the time. It is impossible for darkness not to be made of god (if there was no darkness before god made it.)

IN other words, you can't cherry pick. If something is made by god from nothing, and only by god, then it's of god. Whether it's good or bad.

In the beginning... was there anything else but god?

And what do we mean by "beginning"? The last day before the first day of creation? Because that's not an actual "beginning"... god never began. He is everlasting from eternity infinite past onward.

So if darkness, a sense of "up" and "down", flotation, gravity, and waters existed in the first day of creation, then probably they too had been created by god. But at a much earlier time in past infinity.

"I am the alpha and the omega." (These are the etymological beginnings of "Ill fa..." and of "O, my god!")

DPMartin
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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by DPMartin » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:35 pm

-1- wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:27 pm
DPMartin wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:53 pm
God made darkness, but darkness is not of God, is it? and you just said it "God made everything from nothing", and God is something correct? therefore everything God made isn't of Him.
You are right. I made a mistake, I should have said, "god made everything other than himself." So if you would please accept my upgrade in this fashion.

God made darkness..yes, was there darkness before he made it? Yes? No? If there was no darkness before god made it, then what else is it of? There were no other creators at the time. It is impossible for darkness not to be made of god (if there was no darkness before god made it.)

IN other words, you can't cherry pick. If something is made by god from nothing, and only by god, then it's of god. Whether it's good or bad.

In the beginning... was there anything else but god?

And what do we mean by "beginning"? The last day before the first day of creation? Because that's not an actual "beginning"... god never began. He is everlasting from eternity infinite past onward.

So if darkness, a sense of "up" and "down", flotation, gravity, and waters existed in the first day of creation, then probably they too had been created by god. But at a much earlier time in past infinity.

"I am the alpha and the omega." (These are the etymological beginnings of "Ill fa..." and of "O, my god!")
nice try but no cigar, back peddling is not accepted, if God made everything from nothing, as you've said, then what He made is not of Himself, because He is not nothing. so again not of God. again a child of the living is of the life that it has received, but everything else is made.

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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by -1- » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:55 pm

DPMartin wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:35 pm

nice try but no cigar, back peddling is not accepted, if God made everything from nothing, as you've said, then what He made is not of Himself, because He is not nothing. so again not of God. again a child of the living is of the life that it has received, but everything else is made.
Back paddling? I admitted to my mistake, and I corrected my mistake. That is not back paddling. Back paddling in this instance would have been this, or something similar to this: "Oh, I meant everything other than god was created by god. I thought that would have been obvious."

This latter is back paddling, because guilt is not acknowledged, but attempted to be reduced to no-guilt without any substantiation. Admitting to guilt and correcting oneself is not back paddling.

If you like, we can both look up the meaning of "self-correction" and the meaning of "back paddling", then compare notes.

Your other imbedded argument does not stand up. There was nothing before creation other than god and, arguably, darkness, a sense of up and down, waters, flotation and gravity. Everything else that is in existence was made from nothing.

For instance, the stars and the animals and Earth and the trees and grasses, were all made by god from nothing. He used no other ingredients but nothing, to make them. They are of god, because their entire being is a derivative of god's creation. There was nothing else at all contributing to their creation but god, his will, and his action.

If you reject this, then obviously these things that god created are of something else, or partly of something else. What would that something else be? Water? Darkness? Up/down? Gravity? Flotation? Take your pick then tie it up neatly.

Now, you can say that most everything on earth contains water, so they are not of god. But man contains water. You would be throwing the man out with the water if you suggested that things of water are not of god.

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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by -1- » Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:03 pm

DPMartin wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:35 pm
nice try but no cigar, back peddling is not accepted, if God made everything from nothing, as you've said, then what He made is not of Himself, because He is not nothing. so again not of God. again a child of the living is of the life that it has received, but everything else is made.
There is another line of argument I could follow (but I won't), which would not involve my correction of my own false utterance, but insist that god made himself of nothing. Of course we, with our slurpid human minds, can't imagine something to make something else without pre-existing. To create, the creator must exist prior to creation. If god creates himself, then he is not pre-existing his own creation.

This could be argued against, stating that making himself was the moment he had come into existence, so he could make himself. The two events, creating something, and the creator's presence, could be starting simultaneously.

Again, I won't follow this logic, but it could be made into an argument, and it would not necessitate that I admit to any sort of mistake.

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bahman
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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by bahman » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:52 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:40 am
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:54 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:48 am
Free will is the ultimate act of generosity and means to truth, without it it goodness is tyranny.
What do you mean?
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:48 am
Because literal language does not contain the necessary multidimensional to express truth as literalism takes truth at a strict "face" value without allowing the possibility of any depth behind it. In these respect literalism fails as it contradicts its own terms for "literalism" as a logical height could only be justified through the vary same process of "imaging" (imagination) it argues against. Allegory and metaphor is the crystallization of knowledge through an "imaging" process and in these respect imagination (further observed as necessary within the scientific method) provides the boundaries for truth by allowing a multidimensional. Images and allegories are merely equations of pictorial structures that are rooted in platonic forms rooted in geometry.
So you are claiming, that God who is omniscient cannot convey the truth literally? Are you saying that it is logically impossible to tell the truth literally?
Does literalism work? It has its place however Godel''s Incompleteness theorems give further evidence to its limits.
So you are arguing in favor of irrationality, something which cannot be explained rationally?

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:24 am

bahman wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:52 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:40 am
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:54 pm


What do you mean?



So you are claiming, that God who is omniscient cannot convey the truth literally? Are you saying that it is logically impossible to tell the truth literally?
Does literalism work? It has its place however Godel''s Incompleteness theorems give further evidence to its limits.
So you are arguing in favor of irrationality, something which cannot be explained rationally?
Literalism is not rational on its own terms as Godel's incompleteness theorems prove for math (the most literal of all languages).
Alleghories are not rational on their own terms as they require forms that must have consistent relations in order to define their core traits.

You need both.

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bahman
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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by bahman » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:13 am

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:24 am
Literalism is not rational on its own terms as Godel's incompleteness theorems prove for math (the most literal of all languages).
Alleghories are not rational on their own terms as they require forms that must have consistent relations in order to define their core traits.

You need both.
Great. So there is nothing rational at all.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:33 am

bahman wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:13 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:24 am
Literalism is not rational on its own terms as Godel's incompleteness theorems prove for math (the most literal of all languages).
Alleghories are not rational on their own terms as they require forms that must have consistent relations in order to define their core traits.

You need both.
Great. So there is nothing rational at all.
Reason is strictly structure through ratios. Ratios are the limits which both maintain a structure as unified while simultaneously seperating it from other structures. In these respects, the observation of all forms and how they are interjoined is "Reason" as definition. Without definition we cannot understand "truth". Why should truth be limited to anyone one perspective?

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