What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Lacewing
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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by Lacewing » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:41 pm

DPMartin wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:32 pm
...
Okay, first of all... you seem to be all wound up about something that is really not making much sense to me.
DPMartin wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:16 pm
theists wouldn't agree that "inclusion for all" is justice, so they wouldn't have the cause of "inclusion for all" at heart.
Well, neither do I, if I'm understanding you correctly. I don't think in the way that you seem to be framing here.

I was doing my best to respond to you, without fully understanding your terminology. So maybe that's part of the problem.
DPMartin wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:32 pm
you are the one who is screaming
I'm not screaming... why are you saying that I'm screaming?
DPMartin wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:32 pm
...about how unfair it is in your judgement that exclusion is evil
Again, your phrasing and your way of framing this is really odd to me, and I was doing my best to respond. Let's really try to be clear about this: I do not think that exclusion is evil. I was asking you if the theist pattern of judging what IS and IS NOT of God (along with all of the other questionable things attributed to God) COULD BE influences of Satan (or evil)? It's a reasonable question, isn't it?

You seem to be saying that all is not of God. I'm trying to understand the rationality of "all not being of God" for theists. I don't understand that view.

The questions that come to me are: How would there be any dividing lines and exclusions except those created by humans? Aren't humans dividing up and assigning the idea of God in a way that suits them?
DPMartin wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:32 pm
so why is it that all-inclusive or "inclusion for all" is perceived as righteous, or good, and being excluded is evil? why can't you answer that? or is it just the most popular distinction now, to be included with the believers in "inclusion for all", and you really don't know a thing about what you're talking about?
I really don't understand why you're being so attacking. I have clearly been responding to your posts... while you have actually skipped over some of my questions. I'm doing my best to respond to a question that sounds really weird to me... so why don't you take a breath and notice what's going on for you that has nothing to do with me?
Last edited by Lacewing on Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

RustyBert
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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by RustyBert » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:51 pm

Hi Lacewing - I read through this thread for the fun of it. I think you should give up on getting any kind of discussion going with this DPMartin guy. It's obvious he's too far gone to do anything but quote talking points he's been fed, and maybe quote the bibles ad nauseum. You're trying to have a rational discussion in terms a thinking Christian could handle. But DPMartin isn't that type of Christian. Bless his heart though for thinking he is, and for him thinking by regurgitating his talking points against the heathens he's scoring points with his god. I guess the world needs those types too. :D

DPMartin
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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by DPMartin » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:59 pm

Lacewing wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:41 pm
DPMartin wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:32 pm
you are the one who is screaming
I'm not screaming... why are you saying that I'm screaming?
I would direct you to your previous posting, if this ain't a winy rant, with some kind of entitlements assumed for all, then I don't know what is:
So why are there so many "men of God" who claim to be led astray by Satan? These are supposedly holy men who know God's message like the back of their hand... and they claim that their lives are devoted to God. This is why I asked the question (which pertains to the point of this thread): "Do you think that Satan's intervention is totally recognized and knowable by theists?" It does not appear that it is!

I can also see how "Satan's intervention" could be the reason why religions have been so separatist in their views concerning ALL of God's creation. Such separatism plays to the ego... and separatism is a HUGE part of religion. Can you see that too? I realize that you are probably going to want to defend your beliefs no matter what -- and I'm not trying to ruin it for you. :) I just think that there should be nothing wrong with asking truthful questions and wanting truthful answers about VERY REAL ISSUES. These questions should be illuminating. How can we ever see how entrenched we are in FALSENESS, unless we stop defending it?

Why do theists make all sorts of judgments about what IS and IS NOT God, rather than embracing and honoring and seeing God IN ALL? Why WOULDN'T God be in all? Wouldn't it be Satan who would cast such a distortion?

What if God is a totally natural, sweet and loving presence WITHIN ALL, that has nothing to do with all of these interpretive creations of men (including "the Gospels")?

Are my questions offensive or unreasonable? Why can't we be honest and brave about exploring this?
have a nice day.

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Lacewing
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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by Lacewing » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:12 pm

RustyBert wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:51 pm
Hi Lacewing - I read through this thread for the fun of it. I think you should give up on getting any kind of discussion going with this DPMartin guy. It's obvious he's too far gone to do anything but quote talking points he's been fed, and maybe quote the bibles ad nauseum. You're trying to have a rational discussion in terms a thinking Christian could handle. But DPMartin isn't that type of Christian. Bless his heart though for thinking he is, and for him thinking by regurgitating his talking points against the heathens he's scoring points with his god. I guess the world needs those types too. :D
Thanks RustyBert. You offer a very balanced and compassionate view. :)

Yes, I do try to have reasonable and rational discussions with theists... as it's hard for me to imagine anyone NOT wanting to ask certain questions and see more. My questioning usually ends with theists blowing up at me, though -- which I would hope might still show them something about the intoxication of their attachment -- but that's unrealistic of me, I suppose.

My focus is not on destroying the theist's framework... I'm focused on suggesting a broadening and assessment of views, which I guess IS a threat to the theist framework. Is Christianity really THAT RESISTANT to a broadening of views? And if so, doesn't THAT ALONE demonstrate for them how contrived it is? For example: Is there anything in this world, other than religion, that we DON'T continually want more information about so that we can see fully what we're dealing with?

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Lacewing
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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by Lacewing » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:20 pm

DPMartin wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:59 pm
I would direct you to your previous posting, if this ain't a winy rant, with some kind of entitlements assumed for all, then I don't know what is:
It's not. Evidently that's how you're interpreting it. Unfortunately. I'm sorry (and surprised) that you've completely missed the intended tone and message.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:26 am

DPMartin wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:39 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:12 pm
Satan corresponds to a negative entity which manifests continual chaos through a process of continual division.
nope, you got that one wrong, God saw that the Light was good and separated the Light from the darkness. therefore God being good and the Judge of what is good caused a division didn't He? so sorry, but you've got it wrong.
I can tell this is going to be a fun and rational argument right from the start......

I never said God caused Satan to be a negative entity. The choice to turn away from God/Creator/Logos is what founded Satan as that entity. The act of seeking equality cause a division within himself as perpetual "chaos".

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:45 am

Lacewing wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:47 pm
DPMartin wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:16 pm
How is it that inclusive or all-inclusive is perceived as righteous, or good, and being excluded is evil?

there is what is for, and what is against. Therefore, what is against must be excluded for the sake of what is for.
My question was focusing on the idea/belief that there would be anything that is NOT OF GOD. Theists clearly make such distinctions, don't they?

If everything is of God, then how would there be "what is for" and "what is against"... when it's ALL God? Don't those seem like human creations?
This might help in regards to the question of "what is not of God":

The Book of 24 Philosophers:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_t ... ilosophers



1. Deus est monas monadem gignens, in se unum reflectens ardorem.

God is a monad generating a monad, which in the heat (of love) reflects to himself alone.


2. Deus est sphaera infinita cuius centrum est ubique, circumferentia nusquam.

God is an infinite sphere, whose center is everywhere (and) circumference is nowhere.


3. Deus est totus in quolibet sui.

God is all in any of his.


4. Deus est mens orationem generans, continuationem perseuerans.

God is mind generating a word (with) enduring continuity.


5. Deus est quo nihil melius excogitari potest.

God is that where nothing better can be devised.


6. Deus est cuius comparatione substantia est accidens, et accidens nihil.

God is that, in which comparison substance (or essence) is an attribute (or feature), and attribute (or feature) being nothing.


7. Deus est principium sine principio, processus sine variatione, finis sine fine.

God is beginning without beginning, process without variation, end without end.


8. Deus est amor qui plus habitus magis latet.

God is love, which the more is hidden the more we (believe to) have it.


9. Deus est cui soli praesens est quidquid cuius temporis est.

God is that, to whom all is present related to (all what belongs to) time.


10. Deus est cuius posse non numeratur, cuius esse non clauditur, cuius bonitas non terminatur.

God is that, whose ability (or competence) is not numbered, whose being is not limited, whose goodness is not terminated.


11. Deus est super ens, necesse, solus sibi abundanter, sufficienter.

God is above (or beyond) being, (is) necessary and by oneself being sufficient unto himself in abundance.


12. Deus est cuius voluntas deificae et potentiae et sapientiae adaequatur.

God is that, whose will equals (or is according) his divine power and wisdom.


13. Deus est sempiternitas agens in se, semper divisione et habitu.

God is working eternity by himself without division and (without having or gaining) an attribute (or feature).


14. Deus est oppositio nihil mediatione entis.

God is the opposition of nothing by means of being.


15. Deus est vita cuius via in formam est, in unitatem bonitas.

God is life, whose way into form is truth, (and whose way) into unity is goodness.


16. Deus est quod solum voces non significant propter excellentiam, nec mentes intelligunt propter dissimilitudinem.

God (is the) only one because of his excellence, who is not signed by words, and mind (creatures) do not recognise (him) caused by (their) dissimilarity.


17. Deus est intellectus sui solum, praedicationem non recipiens.

God is the concept (or notion) (derived) from himself alone not suffering (or tolerating) a(ny) predicate.


18. Deus est sphaera cuius tot sunt circumferentiae quod puncta.

God is the sphere having as much circumferences as points.


19. Deus est semper movens immobilis.

God is the immobile (but always) moved (one).


20. Deus est qui solus suo intellectu vivit.

God is (the only one) alone living from his self knowledge (or self - awareness).


21. Deus est tenebra in anima post omnem lucem relicta.

God is the darkness in the soul being left after all light.


22. Deus est ex quo est quicquid est non partitione, per quem est non variatione, in quo est quod est non commixtione.

God is (that), from which all is (or exists) that is (or exists) without (him) being divided (or splited); through him (all) is without (him) getting (or being) changed; in him (all) is without him getting (or being) mixed with it.


23. Deus est qui sola ignorantia mente cognoscitur.

God is that, which the mind only knows in ignorance (or in the state of not knowing).


24. Deus est lux quae fractione non clarescit, transit, sed sola deiformitas in re.

God is light, appearing as shine without refraction, permeating, but only (being) a divine formation in the things.

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bahman
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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by bahman » Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:16 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:12 pm
Satan corresponds to a negative entity which manifests continual chaos through a process of continual division.

At the practical everyday level this can be observed through self-worship as a means of seperating oneself from others and causing an inherent degree of division within oneself through a process of self relation (where we relate strictly to ourselves, instead of others, and manifest moral systems based upon our interests only).

Certain practices within satanism require a self-fracturing process, usually through orgies or sacrifice, that gives the impression of one "finding deeper truths" but in reality is self-degradation through self-atomization.


We can see this "fracturing" process observed within the continual division of religions, with Christianity being the most "divided", and in these respects we can say he already intervened through the process of "self-worship".
Why Jesus left His people alone to leave room for Satan intervention. Why Bible is not written in literal language so everybody agree on its content?

OuterLimits
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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by OuterLimits » Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:03 pm

Perhaps Satan is real and the only action he took was to create religions and the arguments over them.

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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by -1- » Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:50 pm

DPMartin wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:30 am
(Is everything of God?)

nope not at all, if you make a thing, it doesn't mean its of you, like maybe a child or your words that are of you. but if you make a piece of furniture its not of you.

there is definitely a distinction.
Absolutely. There is a distinciton, but the distinction is not transferable from man to god.

Man makes a chair. Chair is not of man; it is also of wood, nails, upoholstery. Some of these (nails upholstery) are partly man=made, but their material (nail's iron) is god-made, and the wood is god-made. Man is god-made.

So... everything is god-made. There is not any ingredient in a chair or in anything else that is not god-made. There are many things in the world that are not man-made; but god created the universe from nothing. Before the universe, there was nothing; everything in it was god=made. Therefore the whole world is god made, therefore everything is of god.

Including Satan. Satan is very much god-made. Satan did not come into existence without god's creating it.
DPMartin wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:30 am
anyway
How is it that inclusive or all-inclusive is perceived as righteous, or good, and being excluded is evil?
How it can happen? It can happen because people are very dim.

Good deeds are done through us by god. Right?

Everything we do is from god.

Also what we brand as evil and people do is of god: murder. Burning the roast in the oven. Child-molestation comes from god. So does rape, both against male and female victims. Puking into your child's dirty diaper and forcing the baby to eat the mix comes from god.

I ain't kiddin'. All and everything comes from god, it can't be otherwise, since he invented and created everything.

(For the record: here in this text above I treated god as a given. From the point of view of the religious. I actually believe in no god(s).)

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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by gaffo » Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:55 am

bahman wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:21 pm
How could we know the truth through religion?
which "satan"?

there are many.

Belial, Satan, Ahraman, Azazal, Assmodious..............those named are all different entities of Evil with Western Religion.

how many more "satans" are there in Eastern*India -(Kali/etc)/Aztec/now lost Religions..................1000s.

so which "Satan" are you blaming for the corruption of the Religious (which religion?) Truth?

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:48 am

bahman wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:16 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:12 pm
Satan corresponds to a negative entity which manifests continual chaos through a process of continual division.

At the practical everyday level this can be observed through self-worship as a means of seperating oneself from others and causing an inherent degree of division within oneself through a process of self relation (where we relate strictly to ourselves, instead of others, and manifest moral systems based upon our interests only).

Certain practices within satanism require a self-fracturing process, usually through orgies or sacrifice, that gives the impression of one "finding deeper truths" but in reality is self-degradation through self-atomization.


We can see this "fracturing" process observed within the continual division of religions, with Christianity being the most "divided", and in these respects we can say he already intervened through the process of "self-worship".
Why Jesus left His people alone to leave room for Satan intervention.
Free will is the ultimate act of generosity and means to truth, without it it goodness is tyranny.

Why Bible is not written in literal language so everybody agree on its content?
Because literal language does not contain the necessary multidimensional to express truth as literalism takes truth at a strict "face" value without allowing the possibility of any depth behind it. In these respect literalism fails as it contradicts its own terms for "literalism" as a logical height could only be justified through the vary same process of "imaging" (imagination) it argues against. Allegory and metaphor is the crystallization of knowledge through an "imaging" process and in these respect imagination (further observed as necessary within the scientific method) provides the boundaries for truth by allowing a multidimensional. Images and allegories are merely equations of pictorial structures that are rooted in platonic forms rooted in geometry.


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Eodnhoj7
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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:49 am

gaffo wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:55 am
bahman wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:21 pm
How could we know the truth through religion?
which "satan"?

there are many.

Belial, Satan, Ahraman, Azazal, Assmodious..............those named are all different entities of Evil with Western Religion.

how many more "satans" are there in Eastern*India -(Kali/etc)/Aztec/now lost Religions..................1000s.

so which "Satan" are you blaming for the corruption of the Religious (which religion?) Truth?
Consider he represent division and chaos, why wouldn't he have multiple names?

gaffo
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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by gaffo » Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:55 am

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:49 am
gaffo wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:55 am
bahman wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:21 pm
How could we know the truth through religion?
which "satan"?

there are many.

Belial, Satan, Ahraman, Azazal, Assmodious..............those named are all different entities of Evil with Western Religion.

how many more "satans" are there in Eastern*India -(Kali/etc)/Aztec/now lost Religions..................1000s.

so which "Satan" are you blaming for the corruption of the Religious (which religion?) Truth?
Consider he represent division and chaos, why wouldn't he have multiple names?

lol.

I give up...............

to divide?

----------

always like Taimat/Leviathon myself,,,,,,,,the great Dragon of Chaos.

gaffo
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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by gaffo » Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:59 am

"he" is They, and they have different names because there are many relgions and many devils (as there are Gods).

Vishnu is not YHWH - but both are "God" to those within their respective Religion, and the other is NOT GOD (i.e. the Hindu does not affirm YHWH as God while the Christian does the same WRT to Vishnu).

same rule applies to any "Devils".

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