What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

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bahman
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What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by bahman » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:21 pm

How could we know the truth through religion?

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Lacewing
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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by Lacewing » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:41 pm

bahman wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:21 pm
How could we know the truth through religion?
Yes, indeed. There are plenty of signs that suggest it. It would be the perfect platform/ground for evil to masquerade as something else. I don't think that theists are generally evil, but I think the intoxication of religion (and the way it caters to personal ego), is very blinding. Self-belief-preservation... religious-group-preservation... and righteousness typically seem coveted above all else by theists, which is at odds with respecting/honoring/seeing anything ELSE. ***That ignores truthful reasoning.*** I think that creates false idol worship and a creative haven for evil... even amongst those of good intentions.

DPMartin
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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by DPMartin » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:08 pm

bahman wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:21 pm
How could we know the truth through religion?
that's not a what if, its been so since who knows when. but the truth of God is known through His Word if you are speaking of the religions associated to the God of Israel, which is affirmed by the knowledge of His Presence.

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Lacewing
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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by Lacewing » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:25 pm

DPMartin wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:08 pm
bahman wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:21 pm
How could we know the truth through religion?
that's not a what if, its been so since who knows when. but the truth of God is known through His Word if you are speaking of the religions associated to the God of Israel, which is affirmed by the knowledge of His Presence.
So do you think that Satan's intervention is totally recognized and knowable by theists? Might it be that the "truth of God" and what is interpreted as "his word" and the "the knowledge of his presence" has been distorted for eons? Why else would religions be so separatist in their views concerning ALL of God's creation? They do not embrace and honor and understand and SEE God IN ALL... rather, they make all sorts of judgments about what IS and IS NOT God. How does that make any sense? Wouldn't Satan be the one to distort in such a way?

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bahman
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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by bahman » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:29 am

DPMartin wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:08 pm
bahman wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:21 pm
How could we know the truth through religion?
that's not a what if, its been so since who knows when. but the truth of God is known through His Word if you are speaking of the religions associated to the God of Israel, which is affirmed by the knowledge of His Presence.
That is not a right way of justifying things. I cannot say that I justify myself by my own words. I need to give people reasons. Satan can mislead us. He can do miracles. So even miracles cannot be used to justify things. The absence of a unity in religions shows that He is involved in all religions. Any person thinks that he is right and other are wrong. How that could be possibly true?

DPMartin
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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by DPMartin » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:42 pm

bahman wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:29 am
DPMartin wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:08 pm
bahman wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:21 pm
How could we know the truth through religion?
that's not a what if, its been so since who knows when. but the truth of God is known through His Word if you are speaking of the religions associated to the God of Israel, which is affirmed by the knowledge of His Presence.
That is not a right way of justifying things. I cannot say that I justify myself by my own words. I need to give people reasons. Satan can mislead us. He can do miracles. So even miracles cannot be used to justify things. The absence of a unity in religions shows that He is involved in all religions. Any person thinks that he is right and other are wrong. How that could be possibly true?
what are you talking about "justify things". in the case of the God of Israel that's the way it is. no one is correct when it comes to the Truth of God, but the Truth of God. Hence the Truth of God need no justification because it is God's Judgment that justifies.

but it foolish to think the Truth of God can't be known just because many lie about it. its human nature to lie, hence human nature is not the source of the Truth of God. the Truth of God is of God hence from God.

DPMartin
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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by DPMartin » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:55 pm

Lacewing wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:25 pm
DPMartin wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:08 pm
bahman wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:21 pm
How could we know the truth through religion?
that's not a what if, its been so since who knows when. but the truth of God is known through His Word if you are speaking of the religions associated to the God of Israel, which is affirmed by the knowledge of His Presence.
So do you think that Satan's intervention is totally recognized and knowable by theists? Might it be that the "truth of God" and what is interpreted as "his word" and the "the knowledge of his presence" has been distorted for eons? Why else would religions be so separatist in their views concerning ALL of God's creation? They do not embrace and honor and understand and SEE God IN ALL... rather, they make all sorts of judgments about what IS and IS NOT God. How does that make any sense? Wouldn't Satan be the one to distort in such a way?
the perfect example of you questions are in the garden with A&E. there was what God said, and what the serpent tested Eve's knowledge of what God said, and then the serpents interpretation of what God said expressed to Eve. and these hid from the Voice of the Lord walking in the garden hence they had a relationship with the Word of God in the Presence of God before they ate of the tree. and even with that, they were deceived.

it boils down to "who do you trust" and or believe. if they trusted the Lord God and believed the Lord God they wouldn't have eaten of the tree nor would they have trusted the words of the serpent. but there is the problem, and the solution, because in the Gospel message all that is required for salvation is belief and trust (faith). but again that's in the Word of God is the place for that trust, not the interpretations of men.
Last edited by DPMartin on Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lacewing
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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by Lacewing » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:26 pm

DPMartin wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:55 pm
in the Gospel message all that is required for salvation is belief and trust (faith). but again that's in the Word of God is the place for that trust, not the interpretations of men.
So why are there so many "men of God" who claim to be led astray by Satan? These are supposedly holy men who know God's message like the back of their hand... and they claim that their lives are devoted to God. This is why I asked the question (which pertains to the point of this thread): "Do you think that Satan's intervention is totally recognized and knowable by theists?" It does not appear that it is!

I can also see how "Satan's intervention" could be the reason why religions have been so separatist in their views concerning ALL of God's creation. Such separatism plays to the ego... and separatism is a HUGE part of religion. Can you see that too? I realize that you are probably going to want to defend your beliefs no matter what -- and I'm not trying to ruin it for you. :) I just think that there should be nothing wrong with asking truthful questions and wanting truthful answers about VERY REAL ISSUES. These questions should be illuminating. How can we ever see how entrenched we are in FALSENESS, unless we stop defending it?

Why do theists make all sorts of judgments about what IS and IS NOT God, rather than embracing and honoring and seeing God IN ALL? Why WOULDN'T God be in all? Wouldn't it be Satan who would cast such a distortion?

What if God is a totally natural, sweet and loving presence WITHIN ALL, that has nothing to do with all of these interpretive creations of men (including "the Gospels")?

Are my questions offensive or unreasonable? Why can't we be honest and brave about exploring this?

DPMartin
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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by DPMartin » Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:16 pm

Lacewing wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:26 pm
DPMartin wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:55 pm
in the Gospel message all that is required for salvation is belief and trust (faith). but again that's in the Word of God is the place for that trust, not the interpretations of men.
So why are there so many "men of God" who claim to be led astray by Satan? These are supposedly holy men who know God's message like the back of their hand... and they claim that their lives are devoted to God. This is why I asked the question (which pertains to the point of this thread): "Do you think that Satan's intervention is totally recognized and knowable by theists?" It does not appear that it is!

I can also see how "Satan's intervention" could be the reason why religions have been so separatist in their views concerning ALL of God's creation. Such separatism plays to the ego... and separatism is a HUGE part of religion. Can you see that too? I realize that you are probably going to want to defend your beliefs no matter what -- and I'm not trying to ruin it for you. :) I just think that there should be nothing wrong with asking truthful questions and wanting truthful answers about VERY REAL ISSUES. These questions should be illuminating. How can we ever see how entrenched we are in FALSENESS, unless we stop defending it?

Why do theists make all sorts of judgments about what IS and IS NOT God, rather than embracing and honoring and seeing God IN ALL? Why WOULDN'T God be in all? Wouldn't it be Satan who would cast such a distortion?

What if God is a totally natural, sweet and loving presence WITHIN ALL, that has nothing to do with all of these interpretive creations of men (including "the Gospels")?

Are my questions offensive or unreasonable? Why can't we be honest and brave about exploring this?
How is it that inclusive or all-inclusive is perceived as righteous, or good, and being excluded is evil?

there is what is for, and what is against. Therefore, what is against must be excluded for the sake of what is for.

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Lacewing
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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by Lacewing » Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:47 pm

DPMartin wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:16 pm
How is it that inclusive or all-inclusive is perceived as righteous, or good, and being excluded is evil?

there is what is for, and what is against. Therefore, what is against must be excluded for the sake of what is for.
My question was focusing on the idea/belief that there would be anything that is NOT OF GOD. Theists clearly make such distinctions, don't they?

If everything is of God, then how would there be "what is for" and "what is against"... when it's ALL God? Don't those seem like human creations?

DPMartin
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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by DPMartin » Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:30 am

Lacewing wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:47 pm
DPMartin wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:16 pm
How is it that inclusive or all-inclusive is perceived as righteous, or good, and being excluded is evil?

there is what is for, and what is against. Therefore, what is against must be excluded for the sake of what is for.
My question was focusing on the idea/belief that there would be anything that is NOT OF GOD. Theists clearly make such distinctions, don't they?

If everything is of God, then how would there be "what is for" and "what is against"... when it's ALL God? Don't those seem like human creations?
nope not at all, if you make a thing, it doesn't mean its of you, like maybe a child or your words that are of you. but if you make a piece of furniture its not of you.

there is definitely a distinction.

anyway
How is it that inclusive or all-inclusive is perceived as righteous, or good, and being excluded is evil?

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Lacewing
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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by Lacewing » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:02 am

DPMartin wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:16 pm
How is it that inclusive or all-inclusive is perceived as righteous, or good, and being excluded is evil?
I think this is a question for theists, right? They are the ones who make such distinctions -- which is what I was questioning. Whereas, I don't frame things in such a way. I think everything is connected, and ultimately ONE, and the full range of good and evil exists as a capability for all.
DPMartin wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:16 pm
if you make a thing, it doesn't mean its of you, like maybe a child or your words that are of you. but if you make a piece of furniture its not of you.
there is definitely a distinction.
So are humans more like artwork or more like children? In other words, are we OF God, or is God separate from us?

Or are we OF God when it's beneficial for us to think that way -- and God is separate from us when it's beneficial for us to think that way? :)

My questions are sincere... and I appreciate you sticking with it longer than most people do. I think these distinctions are important for exploring a concept such as a god. And it shouldn't be taboo to ask and answer such questions. I think there are a lot of inconsistencies in theism, which suggests to me that we're working with a lot of manmade ideas, judgments, and control that adjusts as man sees fit. Personally, I really want to see with as much clarity as possible... despite all of man's noise. I think the broader truth is probably brilliant and simple. Without any need for all of the manmade conditions.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:12 pm

Satan corresponds to a negative entity which manifests continual chaos through a process of continual division.

At the practical everyday level this can be observed through self-worship as a means of seperating oneself from others and causing an inherent degree of division within oneself through a process of self relation (where we relate strictly to ourselves, instead of others, and manifest moral systems based upon our interests only).

Certain practices within satanism require a self-fracturing process, usually through orgies or sacrifice, that gives the impression of one "finding deeper truths" but in reality is self-degradation through self-atomization.


We can see this "fracturing" process observed within the continual division of religions, with Christianity being the most "divided", and in these respects we can say he already intervened through the process of "self-worship".

DPMartin
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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by DPMartin » Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:32 pm

Lacewing wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:02 am
DPMartin wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:16 pm
How is it that inclusive or all-inclusive is perceived as righteous, or good, and being excluded is evil?
I think this is a question for theists, right? They are the ones who make such distinctions -- which is what I was questioning. Whereas, I don't frame things in such a way. I think everything is connected, and ultimately ONE, and the full range of good and evil exists as a capability for all.
theists wouldn't agree that "inclusion for all" is justice, so they wouldn't have the cause of "inclusion for all" at heart.

you are the one who is screaming about how unfair it is in your judgement that exclusion is evil, so why is it that all-inclusive or "inclusion for all" is perceived as righteous, or good, and being excluded is evil? why can't you answer that? or is it just the most popular distinction now, to be included with the believers in "inclusion for all", and you really don't know a thing about what you're talking about?

DPMartin
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Re: What if Satan has intervened in all religions?

Post by DPMartin » Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:39 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:12 pm
Satan corresponds to a negative entity which manifests continual chaos through a process of continual division.
nope, you got that one wrong, God saw that the Light was good and separated the Light from the darkness. therefore God being good and the Judge of what is good caused a division didn't He? so sorry, but you've got it wrong.

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