How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

thedoc
Posts: 6312
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by thedoc » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:40 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:56 pm

I see a mind that ran from the real issue at hand. You are either deflecting from thinking of what you did so as to ignore it, or lack the wit to know what I was talking about.

Regards
DL
I answered the question you asked, if you insist on dancing around what you mean to say and play games with the meaning, I can't help you because I don't read minds, especially when there is nothing in it.

thedoc
Posts: 6312
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Post by thedoc » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:52 pm

Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:22 am
The problem with spanking is some people don't regard it as punishment - from personal experience, I've had a couple of women who'd welcome it. So the situation isn't that simple.

PhilX 🇺🇸
You are correct in that spanking isn't always punishment, I was strictly looking at the punishment aspect of the question, and I don't often use spanking as a punishment.

When I was teaching I used paddling as punishment for some infractions, but I made the mistake of spending too much time on my paddle making it too nice. The kids in my class would often do something just to get a swat from my paddle.

User avatar
GreatandWiseTrixie
Posts: 1564
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:51 pm

Re: Re:

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:47 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:14 pm
henry quirk wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:12 pm
"Would that include Satan and her ability to deceive the whole world?"

Don't know...in the same way you need to talk to Mannie if you wanna know why his God does this or that, you'll have to consult a satanist on that one.
I see that Satan's God given power of deception has worked on you.

Regards
DL
First you praise Satan, then you say imply she is evil.

Who's side are you on exactly?

User avatar
Greatest I am
Posts: 1562
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 5:09 pm

Re: Re:

Post by Greatest I am » Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:37 pm

GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:47 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:14 pm
henry quirk wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:12 pm
"Would that include Satan and her ability to deceive the whole world?"

Don't know...in the same way you need to talk to Mannie if you wanna know why his God does this or that, you'll have to consult a satanist on that one.
I see that Satan's God given power of deception has worked on you.

Regards
DL
First you praise Satan, then you say imply she is evil.

Who's side are you on exactly?
I hate re-reading so let's start fresh.

Eden to Jews was our place of elevation and Satan is seen as the initiator or helper to that elevation. Jews do not have an original sin concept. They have an original virtue concept.

Satan, to Christians, is evil for initiating the fall and original sin.

Which Satan do you see when you read the story.

A good one who initiated our gaining a moral sense. As God put it, ----- they have become as Gods in the knowing of good and evil.

Or.

An evil entity that made gaining our moral sense a fall and should have left us in ignorant bliss and as bright as bricks.

Regards
DL

thedoc
Posts: 6312
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: Re:

Post by thedoc » Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:46 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:37 pm
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:47 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:14 pm


I see that Satan's God given power of deception has worked on you.

Regards
DL
First you praise Satan, then you say imply she is evil.

Who's side are you on exactly?
I hate re-reading so let's start fresh.

Eden to Jews was our place of elevation and Satan is seen as the initiator or helper to that elevation. Jews do not have an original sin concept. They have an original virtue concept.

Satan, to Christians, is evil for initiating the fall and original sin.

Which Satan do you see when you read the story.

A good one who initiated our gaining a moral sense. As God put it, ----- they have become as Gods in the knowing of good and evil.

Or.

An evil entity that made gaining our moral sense a fall and should have left us in ignorant bliss and as bright as bricks.

Regards
DL
Do you believe that Eden was an actual place?

User avatar
Greatest I am
Posts: 1562
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 5:09 pm

Re: Re:

Post by Greatest I am » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:03 pm

thedoc wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:46 pm

Do you believe that Eden was an actual place?
Yes, but not as described. Most myths have a kernel of something real in them and The creation myth might have taken that name from a real place.

Even scientists today who seek it call it by that name so in at least that way, it is a real lace.

I think the whole of the myth is a take off on the Garden's of Delight that most major temples or fortresses had back then.

Since the area where it was said to be is underwater today, we will likely never know if that name was ever a part of some city.

Regards
DL

Viveka
Posts: 370
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:06 pm

Re: Re:

Post by Viveka » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:10 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:37 pm
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:47 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:14 pm


I see that Satan's God given power of deception has worked on you.

Regards
DL
First you praise Satan, then you say imply she is evil.

Who's side are you on exactly?
I hate re-reading so let's start fresh.

Eden to Jews was our place of elevation and Satan is seen as the initiator or helper to that elevation. Jews do not have an original sin concept. They have an original virtue concept.

Satan, to Christians, is evil for initiating the fall and original sin.

Which Satan do you see when you read the story.

A good one who initiated our gaining a moral sense. As God put it, ----- they have become as Gods in the knowing of good and evil.

Or.

An evil entity that made gaining our moral sense a fall and should have left us in ignorant bliss and as bright as bricks.

Regards
DL
Even though we became as 'Gods' we fell into existence as flawed with the requirement of wisdom to surpass it in its nature of wisdom of Good and Evil. Without Sophia, we would not have wisdom nor flawed existence. Hence the name of Eve being both ChVH and HVH, HVH meaning 'manifestation'. If the Garden of Eden was perfect, why ruin it with 'existence' in its downfall of requiring 'wisdom'? I think this is why there is Sophia and Sophia Achamoth, and Christ as the Savior AEon that is in Syzygy with Sophia, as without both, we would lose our way in finding the Pleroma. Love and Wisdom is what Christ taught along with his Syzygy, as he said 'Be as wise as a serpent, and as innocent as a dove.' I would call YHVH evil if I accepted the Gnostic conception of him being an evil or simply ignorant creator, but I cannot accept this and be anti-Cosmic in the sense that matter is evil and spirit good and the creator ignorant. Matter and Spirit, to me, are two sides of the same coin.

thedoc
Posts: 6312
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: Re:

Post by thedoc » Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:16 am

Greatest I am wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:03 pm
thedoc wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:46 pm

Do you believe that Eden was an actual place?
Yes, but not as described. Most myths have a kernel of something real in them and The creation myth might have taken that name from a real place.

Even scientists today who seek it call it by that name so in at least that way, it is a real lace.

I think the whole of the myth is a take off on the Garden's of Delight that most major temples or fortresses had back then.

Since the area where it was said to be is underwater today, we will likely never know if that name was ever a part of some city.

Regards
DL
There was no place called Eden, Eden was a state of existence, innocence of the understanding of life, the whole mythology was to represent man becoming self aware and conscious of his mortality. Before man was like the other animals and only knew existence, not that he was going to die, which was an end to his physical existence. After the "fall" man became self aware and could think and plan for the future. (BTW I am using "man" to represent all of humanity, men and women, not just the male of the species.)

User avatar
Greatest I am
Posts: 1562
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 5:09 pm

Re: Re:

Post by Greatest I am » Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:10 pm

Viveka wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:10 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:37 pm
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:47 pm


First you praise Satan, then you say imply she is evil.

Who's side are you on exactly?
I hate re-reading so let's start fresh.

Eden to Jews was our place of elevation and Satan is seen as the initiator or helper to that elevation. Jews do not have an original sin concept. They have an original virtue concept.

Satan, to Christians, is evil for initiating the fall and original sin.

Which Satan do you see when you read the story.

A good one who initiated our gaining a moral sense. As God put it, ----- they have become as Gods in the knowing of good and evil.

Or.

An evil entity that made gaining our moral sense a fall and should have left us in ignorant bliss and as bright as bricks.

Regards
DL
Even though we became as 'Gods' we fell into existence as flawed with the requirement of wisdom to surpass it in its nature of wisdom of Good and Evil. Without Sophia, we would not have wisdom nor flawed existence. Hence the name of Eve being both ChVH and HVH, HVH meaning 'manifestation'. If the Garden of Eden was perfect, why ruin it with 'existence' in its downfall of requiring 'wisdom'? I think this is why there is Sophia and Sophia Achamoth, and Christ as the Savior AEon that is in Syzygy with Sophia, as without both, we would lose our way in finding the Pleroma. Love and Wisdom is what Christ taught along with his Syzygy, as he said 'Be as wise as a serpent, and as innocent as a dove.' I would call YHVH evil if I accepted the Gnostic conception of him being an evil or simply ignorant creator, but I cannot accept this and be anti-Cosmic in the sense that matter is evil and spirit good and the creator ignorant. Matter and Spirit, to me, are two sides of the same coin.
I can agree with that.

Can you agree with what scriptures say of where our wisdom is perfected?

Hebrews 6 King James Version; 1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Let me add these, which tell us where not to seek and another quote on where to seek our Christ mind.

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.
Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Regards
DL

User avatar
Greatest I am
Posts: 1562
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 5:09 pm

Re: Re:

Post by Greatest I am » Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:16 pm

thedoc wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:16 am
Greatest I am wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:03 pm
thedoc wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:46 pm

Do you believe that Eden was an actual place?
Yes, but not as described. Most myths have a kernel of something real in them and The creation myth might have taken that name from a real place.

Even scientists today who seek it call it by that name so in at least that way, it is a real lace.

I think the whole of the myth is a take off on the Garden's of Delight that most major temples or fortresses had back then.

Since the area where it was said to be is underwater today, we will likely never know if that name was ever a part of some city.

Regards
DL
There was no place called Eden, Eden was a state of existence, innocence of the understanding of life, the whole mythology was to represent man becoming self aware and conscious of his mortality. Before man was like the other animals and only knew existence, not that he was going to die, which was an end to his physical existence. After the "fall" man became self aware and could think and plan for the future. (BTW I am using "man" to represent all of humanity, men and women, not just the male of the species.)
The bible uses other place names that existed throughout their myth and that is why I think that an Eden might have existed. But as I said, we may never know thanks to the location stated is under water. In fact, my favorite biblical historian posits that Eden might have been in Jerusalem and in their temple which would make it a garden of delight, which all major temples had.

I think you might be selling the animal world short in terms of them not knowing of death.

All animals run from predators or try to save their young from predation, likely because instinctively they have some concept of death.

Regards
DL

User avatar
Greatest I am
Posts: 1562
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 5:09 pm

Re: Re:

Post by Greatest I am » Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:19 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:16 pm
thedoc wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:16 am
Greatest I am wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:03 pm


Yes, but not as described. Most myths have a kernel of something real in them and The creation myth might have taken that name from a real place.

Even scientists today who seek it call it by that name so in at least that way, it is a real lace.

I think the whole of the myth is a take off on the Garden's of Delight that most major temples or fortresses had back then.

Since the area where it was said to be is underwater today, we will likely never know if that name was ever a part of some city.

Regards
DL
There was no place called Eden, Eden was a state of existence, innocence of the understanding of life, the whole mythology was to represent man becoming self aware and conscious of his mortality. Before man was like the other animals and only knew existence, not that he was going to die, which was an end to his physical existence. After the "fall" man became self aware and could think and plan for the future. (BTW I am using "man" to represent all of humanity, men and women, not just the male of the species.)
The bible uses other place names that existed throughout their myth and that is why I think that an Eden might have existed. But as I said, we may never know thanks to the location stated is under water. In fact, my favorite biblical historian posits that Eden might have been in Jerusalem and in their temple which would make it a garden of delight, which all major temples had.

You say Eden does not exist. Prove it. You cannot prove a negative and are offering a logical fallacy with the language you are using. Not a good idea as then the onus is on you to show the proof, and we have an absence of proof for your statement. Grammar is important when making claims.

I think you might be selling the animal world short in terms of them not knowing of death.

All animals run from predators or try to save their young from predation, likely because instinctively they have some concept of death.

Regards
DL

thedoc
Posts: 6312
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: Re:

Post by thedoc » Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:09 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:16 pm
The bible uses other place names that existed throughout their myth and that is why I think that an Eden might have existed.

All animals run from predators or try to save their young from predation, likely because instinctively they have some concept of death.

Regards
DL
Just because real places are mentioned does not demonstrate that fictional places existed. Many works of fiction are set in real places but then refer to fictional places as part of the story.

Instinct is not the same as knowledge, many animals have an instinct to act a certain way because it enhances the survival of the species, and an animal can preform these acts without knowing why they are doing them.

bobevenson
Posts: 7342
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:02 am
Contact:

Re: Re:

Post by bobevenson » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:22 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:10 pm
Can you agree with what scriptures say of where our wisdom is perfected?
The only true reference to wisdom is in the book of Revelation, and amplified in "The Ouzo Prophecy":
"Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."
-Revelation 13:18

User avatar
Greatest I am
Posts: 1562
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 5:09 pm

Re: Re:

Post by Greatest I am » Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:53 pm

thedoc wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:09 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:16 pm
The bible uses other place names that existed throughout their myth and that is why I think that an Eden might have existed.

All animals run from predators or try to save their young from predation, likely because instinctively they have some concept of death.

Regards
DL
Just because real places are mentioned does not demonstrate that fictional places existed. Many works of fiction are set in real places but then refer to fictional places as part of the story.

Instinct is not the same as knowledge, many animals have an instinct to act a certain way because it enhances the survival of the species, and an animal can preform these acts without knowing why they are doing them.
Instincts are information just as thoughts are.

You have animals doing things without knowing why. Good luck selling that idea. I am not buying it.

Regards
DL

thedoc
Posts: 6312
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: Re:

Post by thedoc » Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:32 am

Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:53 pm
I am not buying it.

Regards
DL
Pity, you are not understanding that animals do things by instinct rather than understanding. Good for you.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests