The Determination of the Christian - The Confidence...

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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thedoc
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Re: The Determination of the Christian - The Confidence...

Post by thedoc » Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:20 pm

artisticsolution wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:23 pm
God gave people free will for a reason. So they wouldnt have to listen to incessant and irratating misuse and wrongful interpretation of the scriptures.
It is very amusing to hear Atheists first claim that the Bible or any other religious writing is meaningless, and then try to use that same writing to condemn God or whatever deity is being denounced.

artisticsolution
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Re: The Determination of the Christian - The Confidence...

Post by artisticsolution » Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:06 am

thedoc wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:20 pm
artisticsolution wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:23 pm
God gave people free will for a reason. So they wouldnt have to listen to incessant and irratating misuse and wrongful interpretation of the scriptures.
It is very amusing to hear Atheists first claim that the Bible or any other religious writing is meaningless, and then try to use that same writing to condemn God or whatever deity is being denounced.
Did you just call me an atheist?

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Lacewing
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Re: The Determination of the Christian - The Confidence...

Post by Lacewing » Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:52 am

thedoc wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:17 pm
I have encountered some atheists who claim that any mention of religious belief is "trying to cram your religion down my throat" when actually it is simply telling that person what you believe, and nothing more.

I have also encountered a religious person who claimed that if you didn't believe exactly as they believed you were condemned to hell.

Both approaches are wrong, when someone simply is telling the other person what they believe without any expectation.
Like... when you said this?
thedoc wrote:There is no use preaching to the lost sheep who refuse to admit that they are lost, but we do it anyhow, just in case.
And this...
thedoc wrote:I can't help you till you elect to join the community of believers.
What kind of impression would an atheist likely and reasonably have of statements like these? :twisted:

thedoc
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Re: The Determination of the Christian - The Confidence...

Post by thedoc » Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:04 am

artisticsolution wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:06 am
thedoc wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:20 pm
artisticsolution wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:23 pm
God gave people free will for a reason. So they wouldnt have to listen to incessant and irratating misuse and wrongful interpretation of the scriptures.
It is very amusing to hear Atheists first claim that the Bible or any other religious writing is meaningless, and then try to use that same writing to condemn God or whatever deity is being denounced.
Did you just call me an atheist?
Do you deny the label?

thedoc
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Re: The Determination of the Christian - The Confidence...

Post by thedoc » Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:10 am

Lacewing wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:52 am
thedoc wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:17 pm
I have encountered some atheists who claim that any mention of religious belief is "trying to cram your religion down my throat" when actually it is simply telling that person what you believe, and nothing more.

I have also encountered a religious person who claimed that if you didn't believe exactly as they believed you were condemned to hell.

Both approaches are wrong, when someone simply is telling the other person what they believe without any expectation.
Like... when you said this?
thedoc wrote:There is no use preaching to the lost sheep who refuse to admit that they are lost, but we do it anyhow, just in case.
And this...
thedoc wrote:I can't help you till you elect to join the community of believers.
What kind of impression would an atheist likely and reasonably have of statements like these? :twisted:
First of all, where did you dig up those quotes, and second where did I try to force my religious beliefs onto anyone? I just offered my beliefs and left it up to your choice, no forcing involved, I can't keep you from being wrong.

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Lacewing
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Re: The Determination of the Christian - The Confidence...

Post by Lacewing » Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:34 am

thedoc wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:10 am
Lacewing wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:52 am
thedoc wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:17 pm
I have encountered some atheists who claim that any mention of religious belief is "trying to cram your religion down my throat" when actually it is simply telling that person what you believe, and nothing more.

I have also encountered a religious person who claimed that if you didn't believe exactly as they believed you were condemned to hell.

Both approaches are wrong, when someone simply is telling the other person what they believe without any expectation.
Like... when you said this?
thedoc wrote:There is no use preaching to the lost sheep who refuse to admit that they are lost, but we do it anyhow, just in case.
And this...
thedoc wrote:I can't help you till you elect to join the community of believers.
What kind of impression would an atheist likely and reasonably have of statements like these? :twisted:
First of all, where did you dig up those quotes, and second where did I try to force my religious beliefs onto anyone? I just offered my beliefs and left it up to your choice, no forcing involved, I can't keep you from being wrong.
The quotes are from the forum, of course. Easy for me to reference, because I responded to them.

Why didn't you answer my question? What would YOU, yourself, think of someone saying such things to YOU about THEIR belief system?

artisticsolution
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Re: The Determination of the Christian - The Confidence...

Post by artisticsolution » Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:21 am

thedoc wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:04 am
artisticsolution wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:06 am
thedoc wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:20 pm


It is very amusing to hear Atheists first claim that the Bible or any other religious writing is meaningless, and then try to use that same writing to condemn God or whatever deity is being denounced.
Did you just call me an atheist?
Do you deny the label?
Yes i deny the label. I am not athiest. I have found them, in general, to be more honest than thiest though. Oddly enough.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: The Determination of the Christian - The Confidence...

Post by Immanuel Can » Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:16 pm

artisticsolution wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:23 pm
Its the badgering that is abuse.
Well, nobody's "badgered."

We have no coercive measures that can compel a person to do anything. We can only say what we know. Whether or not a person wants to hear it is up to him or her. There is no compulsion, and can be none here.
Its the brainwashing
There are cults that do this, for sure; but if they succeed at it, then that's simply a theological disaster. A Christian -- any real and theologically astute one -- knows that unless a person believes freely, not only is God not fooled by his profession of belief, but also that person remains as lost and confused as before.

Faith cannot be compelled; and if it is, then it is inauthentic. But, as the Bible puts it, "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." So we must say what we know, and leave it at that.

John Locke said that very thing, actually.
God gave people free will for a reason.
Correct. I agree.

Freedom is the sine qua non of relationship: you cannot have a relationship with God except by free will. But that will can only be informed by facts, and those facts about God come from what God says about Himself. So Christians must tell people those facts, and let them decide freely what to do with them.

But whether they listen or grind their teeth when they hear those facts, that's not a matter for the Christian to decide. They have the free will as to what they do with the facts; however, they cannot be free without knowing the facts; for without them, they cannot choose rationally and wisely what they will do.

If you have cancer, or have won the lottery, I should tell you. What you do about it will be up to you, of course; but you have no freedom to decide, if you don't know.

artisticsolution
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Re: The Determination of the Christian - The Confidence...

Post by artisticsolution » Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:26 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:16 pm
artisticsolution wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:23 pm
Its the badgering that is abuse.
Well, nobody's "badgered."

We have no coercive measures that can compel a person to do anything. We can only say what we know. Whether or not a person wants to hear it is up to him or her. There is no compulsion, and can be none here.
Its the brainwashing
There are cults that do this, for sure; but if they succeed at it, then that's simply a theological disaster. A Christian -- any real and theologically astute one -- knows that unless a person believes freely, not only is God not fooled by his profession of belief, but also that person remains as lost and confused as before.

Faith cannot be compelled; and if it is, then it is inauthentic. But, as the Bible puts it, "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." So we must say what we know, and leave it at that.

John Locke said that very thing, actually.
God gave people free will for a reason.
Correct. I agree.

Freedom is the sine qua non of relationship: you cannot have a relationship with God except by free will. But that will can only be informed by facts, and those facts about God come from what God says about Himself. So Christians must tell people those facts, and let them decide freely what to do with them.

But whether they listen or grind their teeth when they hear those facts, that's not a matter for the Christian to decide. They have the free will as to what they do with the facts; however, they cannot be free without knowing the facts; for without them, they cannot choose rationally and wisely what they will do.

If you have cancer, or have won the lottery, I should tell you. What you do about it will be up to you, of course; but you have no freedom to decide, if you don't know.
First of all, the bible may be the word of god or may not be the word of God. That you call it a "fact", shows how accustom you have become to lying. If you believe in God, thats great! However, you must admit you have never actually seem him or heard his voice aloud. You can believe, but beliefs aren't facts.

Whats wrong with just saying, "this is what i believe" ?

An honest heart goes along way in society and to God's ears.

Second, all you have to do is tell me i won the lottery once...no need to badger day in and day out. If you do it to often and too insicerely i might not believe you.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: The Determination of the Christian - The Confidence...

Post by Immanuel Can » Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:26 pm

thedoc wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:17 pm
I have encountered some atheists who claim that any mention of religious belief is "trying to cram your religion down my throat" when actually it is simply telling that person what you believe, and nothing more.
Yes. Or the line I have heard people crank out in reference to anybody who talks about God is, "Don't go forcing your beliefs on me!"

"Force?" :shock: It never entered my mind to do any such thing. But I've thought about their exclamation, and I think I know what they mean. They mean that the message "forces" them to a choice they want to ignore. They want to pretend God does not exist, and that He has not spoken, so they have no obligations in that regard. And you have deprived them of that. You've "forced" them to think about it. So they're mad. Understandable.

You've taken them out of their complacency, and told them they're accountable for their choice with regard to God. They don't WANT to be responsible. You've done them the biggest possible favour, but they think of it as an injury.
I have also encountered a religious person who claimed that if you didn't believe exactly as they believed you were condemned to hell.

Their beliefs had better be perfect, then. :wink: If having any error at all in mind is enough to send a person to Hell, ain't any of us gonna make it.

The basics are easy; but the details...well, they have occupied the world's great scholars for thousands of years, and shaped civilization. There's lots to talk about in Christianity.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: The Determination of the Christian - The Confidence...

Post by Immanuel Can » Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:36 pm

artisticsolution wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:26 pm
First of all, the bible may be the word of god or may not be the word of God.
Yes; you'll have to decide that.
That you call it a "fact", shows how accustom you have become to lying.
Not "lying." I'm stating what I regard to be (in my estimation, by far) the most probable truth in a given situation. That's all one can do, in regard to the empirical world, for all of it is probabilistic.

If "fact" meant, "something that no person can find any reason to doubt at all," then there are no "facts" at all in the empirical world, as Descartes clearly showed in his Meditations. "Cogito, ergo sum": but after that, there are no "facts" of certain provenance. Everything "known" is simply a product of high-probability estimates.

And that's what a "fact" is.
Second, all you have to do is tell me i won the lottery once...no need to badger day in and day out. If you do it to often and too insicerely i might not believe you.
Right. So I'd best be sincere. But if your house is on fire, I'll be telling you repeatedly, if you don't believe me the first time.

And whether or not you appreciate it will not make it less my duty to do.

artisticsolution
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Re: The Determination of the Christian - The Confidence...

Post by artisticsolution » Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:46 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:36 pm
artisticsolution wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:26 pm
First of all, the bible may be the word of god or may not be the word of God.
Yes; you'll have to decide that.
That you call it a "fact", shows how accustom you have become to lying.
Not "lying." I'm stating what I regard to be (in my estimation, by far) the most probable truth in a given situation. That's all one can do, in regard to the empirical world, for all of it is probabilistic.

If "fact" meant, "something that no person can find any reason to doubt at all," then there are no "facts" at all in the empirical world, as Descartes clearly showed in his Meditations. "Cogito, ergo sum": but after that, there are no "facts" of certain provenance. Everything "known" is simply a product of high-probability estimates.

And that's what a "fact" is.
Second, all you have to do is tell me i won the lottery once...no need to badger day in and day out. If you do it to often and too insicerely i might not believe you.
Right. So I'd best be sincere. But if your house is on fire, I'll be telling you repeatedly, if you don't believe me the first time.

And whether or not you appreciate it will not make it less my duty to do.
You're so used to bending the truth you dont even know that you're doing it, i hope. I think its my duty to inform you, that, if there is a God, He knows what's in you're heart. Jesus said, forgive them, they know not what they do...and if this is the case, you have nothing to worry about. However, if it isnt the case...and you know your lying...then i have one thing to say,

"YOUR HOUSE IS ON FIRE!"

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Immanuel Can
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Re: The Determination of the Christian - The Confidence...

Post by Immanuel Can » Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:42 pm

artisticsolution wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:46 pm
However, if it isnt the case...and you know your lying...then i have one thing to say,
I do believe myself to be sincere, so far as I can tell. But as Paul said, "I am not thereby acquitted. I do not even judge myself; but He who judges me is the Lord." If I'm insincere, you're right about this: He'll know.

And that's the reality with which we all live.
"YOUR HOUSE IS ON FIRE!"
Thank you for your concern. I appreciate your solicitousness for my welfare; and in light of it, I'm happy to examine myself afresh. As I say, I think I'm quite sincere in what I'm saying; but I'll have another look.

Do not hesitate to say so, should you genuinely ever suspect it to be true. I would rather you say something than be indifferent to my welfare. After all, it is to God that I will stand or fall, so I must be reminded to do that sort of self-evaluation regularly.

It is for myself I will be obligated to answer...and, as God is true, you will do the same. We are all well-advised to be ready, therefore.

artisticsolution
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Re: The Determination of the Christian - The Confidence...

Post by artisticsolution » Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:00 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:42 pm


It is for myself I will be obligated to answer...and, as God is true, you will do the same. We are all well-advised to be ready, therefore.
True dat. Just doing the best I can. Believe it or not...its life challenges that make me believe more than lifes rewards.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: The Determination of the Christian - The Confidence...

Post by Immanuel Can » Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:22 pm

artisticsolution wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:00 pm
True dat. Just doing the best I can. Believe it or not...its life challenges that make me believe more than lifes rewards.
I believe it. Absolutely.

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