The Determination of the Christian - The Confidence...

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Necromancer
Posts: 252
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:30 am
Location: Metropolitan-Oslo, Norway, Europe
Contact:

The Determination of the Christian - The Confidence...

Post by Necromancer » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:37 am

Allow me to write to you about the determination of the Christian. Now let's imagine that a genuine Christian wants to go to Heaven and works/lives toward such a goal. Further then, can the confidence of a Christian, the very deep feeling of "something out there", Heaven and God, be determined as confidence toward Heaven?

It seems common to believe, among the non-believers, that Christians are somehow hounded to Heaven by a fear of Hell. However, it's my opinion that Hell is rather remote and that the whole package of what Heaven represents, tranquility, goodness, etc., makes it so definitely worthwhile. If Hell may become a possibility, it seems rather the reality that all religious aspects are ignored altogether so that Hell is no longer a thought in the mind of a person "eligible" for such a place.

Your thoughts? Comments?

User avatar
attofishpi
Posts: 2333
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:10 am
Location: Orion Spur
Contact:

Re: The Determination of the Christian - The Confidence...

Post by attofishpi » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:45 am

Necromancer wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:37 am
Allow me to write to you about the determination of the Christian. Now let's imagine that a genuine Christian wants to go to Heaven and works/lives toward such a goal. Further then, can the confidence of a Christian, the very deep feeling of "something out there", Heaven and God, be determined as confidence toward Heaven?

It seems common to believe, among the non-believers, that Christians are somehow hounded to Heaven by a fear of Hell. However, it's my opinion that Hell is rather remote and that the whole package of what Heaven represents, tranquility, goodness, etc., makes it so definitely worthwhile. If Hell may become a possibility, it seems rather the reality that all religious aspects are ignored altogether so that Hell is no longer a thought in the mind of a person "eligible" for such a place.

Your thoughts? Comments?
From my experience of 'God' - Hell and Heaven exist here all around us. I have been in Hell many times, in fact quite recently when I crossed a certain line for my past indiscretions, I was again in Hell. Hell is disgusting, and you end up hating God more than anything can ever be hated.
Heaven, when I'm on the correct path and 'well within this side of the line', is awesome, especially in a sexual way, what can I say, all that religious bullshit about sex and sin - is total bollocks - when the 'God system' makes love to you - wow.

User avatar
-1-
Posts: 555
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:08 am

Re: The Determination of the Christian - The Confidence...

Post by -1- » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:32 am

Necromancer, let me see if I got you straight.

You are saying (? Please confirm aye or nay, and correct the wrong parts I attribute to your OP) that:
- religious are attracted to be in Heaven, and their concern of Hell gets diminished
- the atheists feel that the religious are "good" due to their fear of Hell
- those who are Hellbound or else teetering on the verge of becoming it, are not concerned with getting to Hell, because their value system excludes the possibility of being true Christians, which decreases the potential of their believing that they will wind up in Hell.

Is this a true paraphrasing of what you were saying?

Necromancer
Posts: 252
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:30 am
Location: Metropolitan-Oslo, Norway, Europe
Contact:

Re: The Determination of the Christian - The Confidence...

Post by Necromancer » Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:57 am

-1- wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:32 am
Necromancer, let me see if I got you straight.

You are saying (? Please confirm aye or nay, and correct the wrong parts I attribute to your OP) that:
- religious are attracted to be in Heaven, and their concern of Hell gets diminished
- the atheists feel that the religious are "good" due to their fear of Hell
- those who are Hellbound or else teetering on the verge of becoming it, are not concerned with getting to Hell, because their value system excludes the possibility of being true Christians, which decreases the potential of their believing that they will wind up in Hell.

Is this a true paraphrasing of what you were saying?
1. Aye
2. Aye
3. Aye

True paraphrasing, alright. :D

User avatar
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 991
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: The Determination of the Christian - The Confidence...

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:12 pm

Necromancer wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:37 am
Allow me to write to you about the determination of the Christian. Now let's imagine that a genuine Christian wants to go to Heaven and works/lives toward such a goal. Further then, can the confidence of a Christian, the very deep feeling of "something out there", Heaven and God, be determined as confidence toward Heaven?

It seems common to believe, among the non-believers, that Christians are somehow hounded to Heaven by a fear of Hell. However, it's my opinion that Hell is rather remote and that the whole package of what Heaven represents, tranquility, goodness, etc., makes it so definitely worthwhile. If Hell may become a possibility, it seems rather the reality that all religious aspects are ignored altogether so that Hell is no longer a thought in the mind of a person "eligible" for such a place.

Your thoughts? Comments?
Interesting thoughts.

One perception of Hell, is strictly a place where one can form their own reality seperate of God. However considering that all people maintain that "image of God" within themselves, what they are really doing is perpetually "tearing themselves apart".

Heaven and Hell show the degree of divine freedom within man known as "choice" and in this respect is observes the "Generous" or "Generative" nature of God as both Alpha and Omega.

User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 4119
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: The Determination of the Christian - The Confidence...

Post by Immanuel Can » Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:04 pm

Necromancer wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:37 am
Allow me to write to you about the determination of the Christian. Now let's imagine that a genuine Christian wants to go to Heaven and works/lives toward such a goal.
If he "works" for it, then he's only nominally a Christian. See Eph. 2:8-9, or Titus 3:5. Real Christians are obligated to do good, but never as a way of working toward Heaven, as you describe it. They are obligated out of gratitude and rightness, and not out of a mistaken belief that being good will earn God's favour for them.
Further then, can the confidence of a Christian, the very deep feeling of "something out there", Heaven and God, be determined as confidence toward Heaven?
In my experience, Hell is mostly a negative incentive to do something positive. That is, when one realizes that other people are in danger of missing the whole experience of genuine friendship with God, one is compelled to tell them to make a different choice...just as one would (we hope) feel compelled to tell someone if the building they were living in were in danger of collapse.

As for Heaven, I would say it's not actually the incentive either. For one thing, most people's ideas of what it involves are from cartoons and greeting cards...fluffy clouds, harps, angels, etc. Nobody could find that very motivating, because that depiction is boring, juvenile and inauthentic. It bears no resemblance to anything the Bible describes as "Heaven," a condition or situation it describes mostly by way of metaphor, and with this conclusion: "...eye has not seen, ear has not heard, nor has it entered the heart of man, all those things that God has prepared for those who love Him." (1 Cor. 2:9) Something that no present eye has seen, ear has heard or can be described by present human imagination can hardly be much of an incentive to action.
It seems common to believe, among the non-believers, that Christians are somehow hounded to Heaven by a fear of Hell. However, it's my opinion that Hell is rather remote and that the whole package of what Heaven represents, tranquility, goodness, etc., makes it so definitely worthwhile. If Hell may become a possibility, it seems rather the reality that all religious aspects are ignored altogether so that Hell is no longer a thought in the mind of a person "eligible" for such a place.

Your thoughts? Comments?
What is the incentive, then? God Himself is. To see Him in Jesus Christ is to come love Him, and to experience forgiveness. To know God, that's a head-start on Heaven.

To be without Him, that's Hell.

User avatar
-1-
Posts: 555
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:08 am

Re: The Determination of the Christian - The Confidence...

Post by -1- » Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:00 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:04 pm
To know God, that's a head-start on Heaven.

To be without Him, that's Hell.
You first gave a sermon how a True Christian does not live a Christian life to get to Heaven, as it is forbidden or counter-advised; but then at the end you do revert to the incentive of Heaven, clearly, shamelessly and unambiguously.

This can further be analyzed. Why do True Christians (TCs) live a Christian life? To please God.

Why do they need to please God? You continue from here. My answer would be because (according to Christianity) that's the only way to salvation. Why need salvation? to get rid of sin. Why need to get rid of sin? Because sin leads to hell, and sinlessness leads to heaven.

Here, the buck stops. There is no more "whys". To get to Heaven is the ultimate incentive, which you, as a Christian, supposed to deny from yourself as a motivation, but your outlook encompasses being in Heaven as the ultimate goal.

This is stupid. Just one more glaring self-contradictory teaching by the Bible.

I'm with the OP.

One could argue, "No, the buck stops with loving God. Your going to heaven is only a "fringe benefit" so to speak. You must not keep on working toward it, but it will be your reward anyway." So I am told that if I finish a task, I will get a huge bonus, but I must not keep that in mind. I am told that I must finish that task only to please the boss, and not for any other reason. My future reward as an incentive I must ignore.

This is reminiscent when at a jury trial a lawyer says something that serves as a proof for his client's opponent, and after blurting it out, the lawyer says, "I must ask the jury to ignore my immediate past comment." How can they do that? It's an impossible task.

It is impossible to expect a human after telling him a very favourable positive reward waits for him if he accomplishes a task, that he should ignore this predicted fact.

User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 4119
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: The Determination of the Christian - The Confidence...

Post by Immanuel Can » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:14 pm

-1- wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:00 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:04 pm
To know God, that's a head-start on Heaven.

To be without Him, that's Hell.
You first gave a sermon how a True Christian does not live a Christian life to get to Heaven, as it is forbidden or counter-advised;
Actually, I didn't.

I never said a Christian "does not live a Christian life." I certainly did not say it was "forbidden" or even "counter-advised." I said that his reason for living a Christian life has nothing to do with entrance to Heaven. Instead, I said it has to do with gratitude and rightness, following the settling of that question. The issue of his eternal situation is settled by his decision regarding Jesus Christ. See John 3:16.

Slow down and read what I actually say, and you'll get it.
To get to Heaven is the ultimate incentive,
Again, not at all what I said. In fact, that's what I denied, as the Bible does too. I gave you the references for that, in fact. So if you doubt it, your argument's not with me, but with God.

What I said was that to know God, to have a relationship with Him through His Son, Jesus Christ, is the only incentive. If you want to think of Heaven, then that's Heaven. Heaven is to be in right relationship with one's Creator. Meanwhile, "lostness" is what it means to be out of relational connection with the Source of all life, light and goodness...and Hell is the situation in which that detachment is ultimately experienced, if you decide you want it badly enough.

User avatar
-1-
Posts: 555
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:08 am

Re: The Determination of the Christian - The Confidence...

Post by -1- » Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:35 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:14 pm
-1- wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:00 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:04 pm
To know God, that's a head-start on Heaven.

To be without Him, that's Hell.
You first gave a sermon how a True Christian does not live a Christian life to get to Heaven, as it is forbidden or counter-advised;
Actually, I didn't.

I never said a Christian "does not live a Christian life." I certainly did not say it was "forbidden" or even "counter-advised." I said that his reason for living a Christian life has nothing to do with entrance to Heaven. Instead, I said it has to do with gratitude and rightness, following the settling of that question. The issue of his eternal situation is settled by his decision regarding Jesus Christ. See John 3:16.

To get to Heaven is the ultimate incentive,
Again, not at all what I said. In fact, that's what I denied, as the Bible does too. I gave you the references for that, in fact. So if you doubt it, your argument's not with me, but with God.

What I said was that to know God, to have a relationship with Him through His Son, Jesus Christ, is the only incentive. If you want to think of Heaven, then that's Heaven. Heaven is to be in right relationship with one's Creator. Meanwhile, "lostness" is what it means to be out of relational connection with the Source of all life, light and goodness...and Hell is the situation in which that detachment is ultimately experienced, if you decide you want it badly enough.
I never said a Christian "does not live a Christian life." == strawman fallacy, as the sentence continued "... in order to get to heaven." And the two parts together make exactly what you said, asshole.
"Slow down and read what I actually say, and you'll get it." Take your own fucking advice, asshole. You are a goon, a fucked-up thinker. You can't even comprehend a sentence, " a True Christian does not live a Christian life to get to Heaven" because it's too long for you. You had to cut it in half, and analyze half a sentence, which of course was not at all what I wrote and meant.

Go fuck yourself you incredibly pompous, good-for-nothing thinker.
Is there an "ignore" function on this site, where you can avoid seeing other people's posts? I am UP TO HERE with your ill logic, you ****.

User avatar
-1-
Posts: 555
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:08 am

Re: The Determination of the Christian - The Confidence...

Post by -1- » Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:38 am

Okay, fete accompli. Please, Immanuel Can, if you can, please add ME to your FOE's list. I don't want to see what you write, and I don't want you to see what I write. The world will be a happier place for me that way.

User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 4119
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: The Determination of the Christian - The Confidence...

Post by Immanuel Can » Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:20 pm

-1- wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:38 am
Okay, fete accompli. Please, Immanuel Can, if you can, please add ME to your FOE's list. I don't want to see what you write, and I don't want you to see what I write. The world will be a happier place for me that way.
Conversation's a privilege, not a right. If it makes you unhappy, you have no obligation to continue it, of course. If we don't speak again, I'll leave that as your choice. It is not mine.

We may not agree, but I wish you well. The fact that I would debate you on these issues is, believe it or not, an indicator of that. But perhaps you'll not believe me; so I'll rely on the testimony of the renowned Atheist Penn Jillette:

“I’ve always said that I don’t respect people who don’t proselytize. I don’t respect that at all. If you believe that there’s a heaven and a hell, and people could be going to hell or not getting eternal life, and you think that it’s not really worth telling them this because it would make it socially awkward — and atheists who think people shouldn’t proselytize and who say just leave me alone and keep your religion to yourself — how much do you have to hate somebody to not proselytize? How much do you have to hate somebody to believe everlasting life is possible and not tell them that?”

That's the right question. Mr. Jillette and I disagree on almost everything; but on this, we are in complete agreement. And that's interesting, isn't it? At least on this, an arch-Atheist and Theist speak with one voice.

Be well.

artisticsolution
Posts: 1898
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:38 am
Contact:

Re: The Determination of the Christian - The Confidence...

Post by artisticsolution » Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:35 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:20 pm
-1- wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:38 am
Okay, fete accompli. Please, Immanuel Can, if you can, please add ME to your FOE's list. I don't want to see what you write, and I don't want you to see what I write. The world will be a happier place for me that way.
Conversation's a privilege, not a right. If it makes you unhappy, you have no obligation to continue it, of course. If we don't speak again, I'll leave that as your choice. It is not mine.

We may not agree, but I wish you well. The fact that I would debate you on these issues is, believe it or not, an indicator of that. But perhaps you'll not believe me; so I'll rely on the testimony of the renowned Atheist Penn Jillette:

“I’ve always said that I don’t respect people who don’t proselytize. I don’t respect that at all. If you believe that there’s a heaven and a hell, and people could be going to hell or not getting eternal life, and you think that it’s not really worth telling them this because it would make it socially awkward — and atheists who think people shouldn’t proselytize and who say just leave me alone and keep your religion to yourself — how much do you have to hate somebody to not proselytize? How much do you have to hate somebody to believe everlasting life is possible and not tell them that?”

That's the right question. Mr. Jillette and I disagree on almost everything; but on this, we are in complete agreement. And that's interesting, isn't it? At least on this, an arch-Atheist and Theist speak with one voice.

Be well.
I agree with this as well, but with the strict provision that you only tell them once and then never mention it again. If you do you are guilty of mental and emotional abuse.

User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 4119
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: The Determination of the Christian - The Confidence...

Post by Immanuel Can » Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:05 pm

artisticsolution wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:35 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:20 pm
We may not agree, but I wish you well. The fact that I would debate you on these issues is, believe it or not, an indicator of that. But perhaps you'll not believe me; so I'll rely on the testimony of the renowned Atheist Penn Jillette:

“I’ve always said that I don’t respect people who don’t proselytize. I don’t respect that at all. If you believe that there’s a heaven and a hell, and people could be going to hell or not getting eternal life, and you think that it’s not really worth telling them this because it would make it socially awkward — and atheists who think people shouldn’t proselytize and who say just leave me alone and keep your religion to yourself — how much do you have to hate somebody to not proselytize? How much do you have to hate somebody to believe everlasting life is possible and not tell them that?”

That's the right question. Mr. Jillette and I disagree on almost everything; but on this, we are in complete agreement. And that's interesting, isn't it? At least on this, an arch-Atheist and Theist speak with one voice.

Be well.
I agree with this as well, but with the strict provision that you only tell them once and then never mention it again. If you do you are guilty of mental and emotional abuse.
Conversation is "mental and emotional abuse?" :shock: By no means.

It can't be, so long as it's entirely optional, as it is here. One stays or goes, as one sees fit. Nobody's tied down. And, of course, sophisticated discussions take quite a lot of time to develop...themes are explored, diversions are taken and returns to the main issue ensue, points and counterpoints are exchanged, and cases are built...This can be lengthy and even repetitive sometimes. But it's fine: nobody's a prisoner. And -1- knows that: he's exercised his option.

But "abuse"? I wonder if you would say you were "abusing" your spouse/partner if you told her you loved her more than once. I suspect not. I think the intention of the conversation has a lot to do with that, don't you? :wink:

I would say "Tell them often. Tell them repeatedly. Tell them in different words, and tell them directly. Speak it as many ways and in as many situations as you can. Tell them unless you stop believing it yourself, or they are delivered from the self-destructive path down which they are wandering. Tell them, unless you hate their souls."

But to fall silent, and to let them die in the dark? Now, THAT'S abuse.

Even as ardent an Atheist as Mr. Jillette recognizes that point.

artisticsolution
Posts: 1898
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:38 am
Contact:

Re: The Determination of the Christian - The Confidence...

Post by artisticsolution » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:23 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:05 pm


Conversation is "mental and emotional abuse?" :shock: By no means.
No, you know i wasnt talking about conversation. This is your dishonest heart rearing its ugly head again.

Its the badgering that is abuse. Its the brainwashing you christians do that turn people into zombies or push them away from christ for a lifetime.

God gave people free will for a reason. So they wouldnt have to listen to incessant and irratating misuse and wrongful interpretation of the scriptures.

thedoc
Posts: 6308
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: The Determination of the Christian - The Confidence...

Post by thedoc » Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:17 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:05 pm
Conversation is "mental and emotional abuse?" :shock: By no means.
I have encountered some atheists who claim that any mention of religious belief is "trying to cram your religion down my throat" when actually it is simply telling that person what you believe, and nothing more.

I have also encountered a religious person who claimed that if you didn't believe exactly as they believed you were condemned to hell.

Both approaches are wrong, when someone simply is telling the other person what they believe without any expectation.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests