The Problem with Gelugpa Vajrayana Buddhist School-of-Thought Philosophy

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EchoesOfTheHorizon
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Re: The Problem with Gelugpa Vajrayana Buddhist School-of-Thought Philosophy

Post by EchoesOfTheHorizon » Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:10 pm

Is Gelupga the Gelup order started in the 1400? I grasp the Vajrayana aspect, tantric, so would be associated with Milarepa.

I'm trying to figure out why you are so opposed to them. So they present a view of cognition of substantiated vs a void in thinking about our perception of thingness. This in and of itself isn't a bar to the basic concepts of reincarnation and liberation from the illusions, they are just focused in this situation on two thought processes than can arise from conditioned observation, a either or. You'll have to look deeper into the teachings to see how they explain and deflate either, as the purpose of Buddhism is to eventually abandon all thought in regards to perceptual awareness (and I don't mean merely blinding yourself).

I'm suspecting there is a ocean beneath this wave you are taking offense with. Hardly my religion, but I don't intend to make them less than they are either. I'm interested in Dual and Non-Dualist systems of thought, looks like they set themselves up for favoring one over the other, but the likely long term elimination of both over time. It should by default be a esoteric religion, built on a hierarchy of ideas like the Masons in the west.... you don't learn the higher truths till later on, but what you learn early on isn't worthless (at least not worthless as far as being mason is concerned). You are likely misssing a few fundamental pieces of the puzzle. When I crack a cryptic system, I look at what the end result should be, and assume the system is built around that, and search for the essential mechanisms supporting it. They seem rather orthodox for a religion that proudly displays and talks about crystals cut out of rinpoche's head upon your first time entering a temple (happened to me, weird) and I would of much preferred them to open up with this sort of thing in regards to the nature of conditioned perception of reality. They would of had my attention instead of backing me into a corner a little overwhelmed with strangeness.

Viveka
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Re: The Problem with Gelugpa Vajrayana Buddhist School-of-Thought Philosophy

Post by Viveka » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:33 pm

EchoesOfTheHorizon wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:10 pm
Is Gelupga the Gelup order started in the 1400? I grasp the Vajrayana aspect, tantric, so would be associated with Milarepa.

I'm trying to figure out why you are so opposed to them. So they present a view of cognition of substantiated vs a void in thinking about our perception of thingness. This in and of itself isn't a bar to the basic concepts of reincarnation and liberation from the illusions, they are just focused in this situation on two thought processes than can arise from conditioned observation, a either or. You'll have to look deeper into the teachings to see how they explain and deflate either, as the purpose of Buddhism is to eventually abandon all thought in regards to perceptual awareness (and I don't mean merely blinding yourself).

I'm suspecting there is a ocean beneath this wave you are taking offense with. Hardly my religion, but I don't intend to make them less than they are either. I'm interested in Dual and Non-Dualist systems of thought, looks like they set themselves up for favoring one over the other, but the likely long term elimination of both over time. It should by default be a esoteric religion, built on a hierarchy of ideas like the Masons in the west.... you don't learn the higher truths till later on, but what you learn early on isn't worthless (at least not worthless as far as being mason is concerned). You are likely misssing a few fundamental pieces of the puzzle. When I crack a cryptic system, I look at what the end result should be, and assume the system is built around that, and search for the essential mechanisms supporting it. They seem rather orthodox for a religion that proudly displays and talks about crystals cut out of rinpoche's head upon your first time entering a temple (happened to me, weird) and I would of much preferred them to open up with this sort of thing in regards to the nature of conditioned perception of reality. They would of had my attention instead of backing me into a corner a little overwhelmed with strangeness.
Specifically in Nyingma there are a hierarchy of yogas to go through in order to reach the highest teaching. Fortunately for myself, I have experienced clarity and bliss, which I believe is Samantabhadra and Samantabhadri in Yab-yum, the highest teaching, while all I ever practiced in Nyingma was Ngondro and a few guideless meditations every week or so. I don't know how I experienced it, either, it was spontaneous and unbidden, but I enjoyed it as much as I believe it's enlightenment in a sense. I have also experienced other forms of gnosis which appeared to be enlightenment, but they are so radically different from one another I don't know which one I would choose if I were forced to choose. Nyingma is certainly an esoteric religion, as I haven't even practiced Tummo, which I fear will make me end up in Naraka due to the extremes of heat and cold and the karma I will generate through warmth practices, but, regardless, Tummo is an esoteric practice.

EchoesOfTheHorizon
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Re: The Problem with Gelugpa Vajrayana Buddhist School-of-Thought Philosophy

Post by EchoesOfTheHorizon » Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:13 pm

I used to be able to keep myself warm to a degree up in Alaska, but seemed to of lost it. Had to control my breathing, but never ever worked first thing in the morning, I always shivered the worst coming out to morning formation. But after that, I noticed everyone else would get colder as the day went on, and not me. I would get really hot at times, if I had to jump in a car, entire side by me would fog up. Still does that, it is very annoying.

It was useful for the first year I adopted cynicism, cause sometimes near freezing rains would hit. But once I moved to Hawaii it went away. I've tried to get used to the Cold since, in the summer would submerge myself in streams, in winter wear less clothes. Just doesn't seem to work. Was (or still is, haven't checked for a while) a website so,etching along the lines of innerfire.nl and it is ran by a fan of the Swedish guy called the iceman by the media. He says he learned to do it while taking cold showers, and doing breathing control exercises. He also is of the belief is has to do with the thalamus. According to most personality type maps of the brain I've looked at, the Thalamus isn't in a conscious region of the mind for a INTJ like myself (yes for a INTP) and I honestly don't purposefully enact many of the functions related to the region, they just happen for me.

This being said, as much as I would love to crack the ability to just stay warm..... I seriously do, I utterly fail to see how it is a spiritual exercise in line with the ultimate goal of Buddhism. We don't have to many people in polar bear clubs in the US suddenly reaching a stage of enlightenment where they would become a Buddha after one too many times of leaping into the water. I don't think we have any. Don't recall seeing any of the guys I was with up in Alaska during month long training exercises in the winter suddenly start questioning War and Meat Eating, and advocating meditation as a better alternative to what we were doing. Makes total sense monks up in the mountains need to stay warm to progress, but unless you are planted on a mountainside somewhere, how does that advance you anywhere?

(And yes, this winter I purposely got a cheaper 40 degree sleeping bag, so I can try to get used to being exposed to cold weather for longer periods. I'm hoping I'll be able to get a few nights off during bad weather to practice. I had a surprise night off last night, and slept in my fan, but the temperature is in the 50s, and I am a bit toasty in anything lying in bed right now. Rained all night, but that's easy to ignore. Still raining, still dry. Funny knowing how at one time I could sit in it largely unphased, watching the ocean and fog early in the morning. I'd probably just get horribly sick now.

Viveka
Posts: 370
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Re: The Problem with Gelugpa Vajrayana Buddhist School-of-Thought Philosophy

Post by Viveka » Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:50 pm

EchoesOfTheHorizon wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:13 pm
I used to be able to keep myself warm to a degree up in Alaska, but seemed to of lost it. Had to control my breathing, but never ever worked first thing in the morning, I always shivered the worst coming out to morning formation. But after that, I noticed everyone else would get colder as the day went on, and not me. I would get really hot at times, if I had to jump in a car, entire side by me would fog up. Still does that, it is very annoying.

It was useful for the first year I adopted cynicism, cause sometimes near freezing rains would hit. But once I moved to Hawaii it went away. I've tried to get used to the Cold since, in the summer would submerge myself in streams, in winter wear less clothes. Just doesn't seem to work. Was (or still is, haven't checked for a while) a website so,etching along the lines of innerfire.nl and it is ran by a fan of the Swedish guy called the iceman by the media. He says he learned to do it while taking cold showers, and doing breathing control exercises. He also is of the belief is has to do with the thalamus. According to most personality type maps of the brain I've looked at, the Thalamus isn't in a conscious region of the mind for a INTJ like myself (yes for a INTP) and I honestly don't purposefully enact many of the functions related to the region, they just happen for me.

This being said, as much as I would love to crack the ability to just stay warm..... I seriously do, I utterly fail to see how it is a spiritual exercise in line with the ultimate goal of Buddhism. We don't have to many people in polar bear clubs in the US suddenly reaching a stage of enlightenment where they would become a Buddha after one too many times of leaping into the water. I don't think we have any. Don't recall seeing any of the guys I was with up in Alaska during month long training exercises in the winter suddenly start questioning War and Meat Eating, and advocating meditation as a better alternative to what we were doing. Makes total sense monks up in the mountains need to stay warm to progress, but unless you are planted on a mountainside somewhere, how does that advance you anywhere?

(And yes, this winter I purposely got a cheaper 40 degree sleeping bag, so I can try to get used to being exposed to cold weather for longer periods. I'm hoping I'll be able to get a few nights off during bad weather to practice. I had a surprise night off last night, and slept in my fan, but the temperature is in the 50s, and I am a bit toasty in anything lying in bed right now. Rained all night, but that's easy to ignore. Still raining, still dry. Funny knowing how at one time I could sit in it largely unphased, watching the ocean and fog early in the morning. I'd probably just get horribly sick now.
I'm not sure, but I imagine it has something to do with heat on certain parts of the body mixed with acupuncture points or meridians and how they have psycho-physical effects. To warm the entire body isn't exactly pin-pointing those specific regions of the body, and the yoga that goes along with tummo has warmth spread where there are stretchings or contractions and breath control.

EchoesOfTheHorizon
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Re: The Problem with Gelugpa Vajrayana Buddhist School-of-Thought Philosophy

Post by EchoesOfTheHorizon » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:36 pm

Wait, see.....

This just got complicated. The external map we impose, of acupuncture points, or spots, isn't how our body maps the sensations of the skin. We don't as a species have a very good gps map of our skin, it is why some hindu's have bizarre maps of the skin, for people with phantom limb pain.

Now, I can't dismiss accupuncture, or the concept of mapping of it as a guide, but I know our ability to mentally navigate via landmarks over a map doesn't have anything to do with bodily regulatory functions. That being said.... it does with excitement, awe and reverence, and this does effect our facts about memories. If it didn't, we wouldn't have so many books from antiquity to the present giving historic guides to cities for tourists.

What that would suggest? A mnemonic system of abstract thinking, that pushes a focus of action to place place, that cascades to the next, to the next? That thinking would involve a part of the mind not near the thalamus either. Not saying it is impossible, seems logical even, but how would they know? Other than the body roasting up?

Can't be too theoretic or else a novice would freeze up in early attempts.

What takes place immediately prior to this in learning? This is likely a better indicator. If they figure you can master this one skill, you can be risked on the next. You can freeze to death if you don't conceptually grasp it after all. If it is a hierarchial system of knowledge, what ever comes prior would seem to be essential to what comes later.

Viveka
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Re: The Problem with Gelugpa Vajrayana Buddhist School-of-Thought Philosophy

Post by Viveka » Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:28 pm

EchoesOfTheHorizon wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:36 pm
Wait, see.....

This just got complicated. The external map we impose, of acupuncture points, or spots, isn't how our body maps the sensations of the skin. We don't as a species have a very good gps map of our skin, it is why some hindu's have bizarre maps of the skin, for people with phantom limb pain.

Now, I can't dismiss accupuncture, or the concept of mapping of it as a guide, but I know our ability to mentally navigate via landmarks over a map doesn't have anything to do with bodily regulatory functions. That being said.... it does with excitement, awe and reverence, and this does effect our facts about memories. If it didn't, we wouldn't have so many books from antiquity to the present giving historic guides to cities for tourists.

What that would suggest? A mnemonic system of abstract thinking, that pushes a focus of action to place place, that cascades to the next, to the next? That thinking would involve a part of the mind not near the thalamus either. Not saying it is impossible, seems logical even, but how would they know? Other than the body roasting up?

Can't be too theoretic or else a novice would freeze up in early attempts.

What takes place immediately prior to this in learning? This is likely a better indicator. If they figure you can master this one skill, you can be risked on the next. You can freeze to death if you don't conceptually grasp it after all. If it is a hierarchial system of knowledge, what ever comes prior would seem to be essential to what comes later.
Acupuncture works though, and yoga is a wholly different phenomenon except for a few meridians that are stretched. For instance, some Zen masters tap the left shoulder, or somewhere like that, of the participant with a rod. Supposedly this brings about a certain depth of practice, but I'm not sure what. A map with landmarks is certainly not the same because a map of the acupuncture points is used directly on the body with each acupuncture point having a certain different effect, while a map with landmarks is an external location and has little psycho-physical effects directly involved. I'm sure the placebo effect also has a part in acupuncture, but it has been proven that acupuncture is more than just that.

EchoesOfTheHorizon
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Re: The Problem with Gelugpa Vajrayana Buddhist School-of-Thought Philosophy

Post by EchoesOfTheHorizon » Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:05 pm

I'm sure it is more than just the placebo effect. Also, never had a zen master tap me anywhere, and tried a few schools. Outside of Nicheran, never even met anyone with any insight, they just make you sit like a frog. Eventually gave it up completely once a low level light was set, and I was staring at a wall, and noticed my hypnagogic hallucinations intensified every time I silenced my mind of thinking, as soon as I would think, they disappear, then stop thinking, pop back up. I would see diagonal waves on my left side going right, and right left, and they would clash and push off into either eye....

I brought it up and it stumped him, and he wasn't a slacker when it came to reading books on cognitive psychology. Sitting and just clearing the mind doesn't work very well when you have the "prisoner's cinema" going full blast, mocking you. I get the whole Dogen sitting for a long time angle, Stoicism have a near similar idea, but in this case, doesn't work.... the mind visually is active whether you like it or not, effort and sense of self doesn't stop it, such things are not in control.

If someone pushed me in a acupuncture point while I was trying to ignore my visual cortex, and silence my inner voice, I'd probably just get annoyed at the random hurdles being tossed in my way. Cognitive dissonance or not, my left shoulder is symptomatic of the mind, the administration of a distraction isn't likely going to solve the underlining issue of still seeing and knowing the futility of the task.

Like, your Tibetan monks.... they don't appear to have a solution to this either, they appear to of just gave in, and slapped meditative mandalas everywhere to exploit this phenomena. But if they are using it so far and wide, it likely means they don't know how to do without it. Being able to change one's brain wave patterns isn't the teachings of the Buddha, of seeking nirvana, a end to consciousness and reincarnation, a end to suffering. Seems a lot of traditions built from traditions that arose after the Buddha, but has little to do with the philosophy he advocated. It is a lot of busy work, a progress, a feeling of intrigue and accomplishment, but was this his goal? His ultimate end?

Viveka
Posts: 370
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Re: The Problem with Gelugpa Vajrayana Buddhist School-of-Thought Philosophy

Post by Viveka » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:37 am

EchoesOfTheHorizon wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:05 pm
I'm sure it is more than just the placebo effect. Also, never had a zen master tap me anywhere, and tried a few schools. Outside of Nicheran, never even met anyone with any insight, they just make you sit like a frog. Eventually gave it up completely once a low level light was set, and I was staring at a wall, and noticed my hypnagogic hallucinations intensified every time I silenced my mind of thinking, as soon as I would think, they disappear, then stop thinking, pop back up. I would see diagonal waves on my left side going right, and right left, and they would clash and push off into either eye....

I brought it up and it stumped him, and he wasn't a slacker when it came to reading books on cognitive psychology. Sitting and just clearing the mind doesn't work very well when you have the "prisoner's cinema" going full blast, mocking you. I get the whole Dogen sitting for a long time angle, Stoicism have a near similar idea, but in this case, doesn't work.... the mind visually is active whether you like it or not, effort and sense of self doesn't stop it, such things are not in control.

If someone pushed me in a acupuncture point while I was trying to ignore my visual cortex, and silence my inner voice, I'd probably just get annoyed at the random hurdles being tossed in my way. Cognitive dissonance or not, my left shoulder is symptomatic of the mind, the administration of a distraction isn't likely going to solve the underlining issue of still seeing and knowing the futility of the task.

Like, your Tibetan monks.... they don't appear to have a solution to this either, they appear to of just gave in, and slapped meditative mandalas everywhere to exploit this phenomena. But if they are using it so far and wide, it likely means they don't know how to do without it. Being able to change one's brain wave patterns isn't the teachings of the Buddha, of seeking nirvana, a end to consciousness and reincarnation, a end to suffering. Seems a lot of traditions built from traditions that arose after the Buddha, but has little to do with the philosophy he advocated. It is a lot of busy work, a progress, a feeling of intrigue and accomplishment, but was this his goal? His ultimate end?
Then if you experienced hypnagogic visions then I would recommend stopping meditation and taking a break to sleep. It's a signal to your body that you are past the point of waking experience and close to sleeping. If it persists, I would recommend trying meditation in a better lit room and/or closing your eyes when meditating, if you can meditate without falling asleep. The entire point of meditating with eyes open is to carry it into your daily experience just as you do when practicing walking meditation. I think the Buddha's teachings are best exemplified by the writings in the Tipitaka. I don't practice much else except Nyingma approximations, as I haven't gotten the whole deal of the different yogas of Naropa and such. The whole hitting on the shoulder is supposed to release energy in the shoulder into the brain/cranial area, i think but I am not sure. Mysticism is always something difficult to describe and understand, especially if one hasn't experienced itself for oneself.

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