How to exit the religious mess!

[Arising_uk]

The thought ''I am a separate person'' and there is an external world outside of me is not real. ...

There is nothing realer.

The external world cannot be outside of you because where ever you go, there you are, you cannot step into an outside world, the external world is in your consciousness, you cannot experience it directly, because awareness cannot experience itself as an object, it is only that which is aware of an object. ...

So where is this object that it is aware of?

Try it and see for yourself, try stepping out into the external world.

I do it everyday by going through my front-door. Tell you what you try stepping in front of that big red bus and see if it's just all in your head.

I am aware that there is a noumena and do not think that I am it just because the phenomena are mine.

[Arising_uk]

What you are can't die, it was never born, and that's the really good news.

There is no bad news.

Untrue if you believe this as the bad news is that you are reifying being alive into 'Life' and living things, in general, die.

[Arising_uk]

Yep, that's it, I AM... but I AM nothing without my knowledge...and what I AM is not my knowledge...for I AM ALWAYS with or without it.

You're not paying attention to your body.

[Belinda]

Dontaskme wrote:

You are the awareness of the body and the senses and the external world.

Besides awareness of the body, aren't you also the actual body?

[Dontaskme]

Awareness is the object experiencing itself as the body is the object.

Awareness is not an object, awareness cannot experience itself as an object...it is aware of an object, but if you believe awareness is an object, then explain what it feels like to be the heart, or the blood, or the lung, or a leg, or an arm, etc?

[Dontaskme]

Yep, that's it, I AM... but I AM nothing without my knowledge...and what I AM is not my knowledge...for I AM ALWAYS with or without it.

You're not paying attention to your body.

The body functions silently alone all by itself without any conscious attention. It does not need you to function. You don't exist. Good example of that is when you are in deep dreamless or dream sleep whatever, the body is functioning perfectly fine, another example is during the conception period when the fetus is growing. Life in this instance is in the state of pure awareness, it's natural state unaware of itself as an object. It's just being pure natural awareness or beingness, or aliveness what ever you want to call it.

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[Belinda]

Dontaskme wrote:

The body functions silently alone all by itself without any conscious attention. It does not need you to function. You don't exist. Good example of that is when you are in deep dreamless or dream sleep whatever, the body is functioning perfectly fine

That is not true. The body sometimes is unhealthy, and the brain chemicals and the hormones can be disrupted including during sleeping. It's also not true because if we did not attend to body needs such eating and drinking we would die.
You are too impulsive. You need to reflect before you write.

[Arising_uk]

Awareness is not an object, awareness cannot experience itself as an object...it is aware of an object, but if you believe awareness is an object, then explain what it feels like to be the heart, or the blood, or the lung, or a leg, or an arm, etc?

I didn't say awareness is an object I said the object is the body and awareness is its experience of itself.

[Dontaskme]

What you are can't die, it was never born, and that's the really good news.

There is no bad news.

Untrue if you believe this as the bad news is that you are reifying being alive into 'Life' and living things, in general, die.

Lets try and refrain from semantics, and look at what is being pointed to.

I'm going to use the word ''presence'' as a CONCEPTUAL reference to PURE AWARENESS

To know that something is born, or to know that something dies...is to know there was a beginning to presence, and we all know that a beginning would imply and end.


Can you find the very first beginning of presence....where is the starting point where presence first began?

You can't because words such as born and die are just words. They're just made-up sounds with made-up meaning attached, all sourced from silent presence.

There's a presence here, without doubt or error...but can the beginning of that presence be known and by what or who?




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[Arising_uk]

The body functions silently alone all by itself without any conscious attention. It does not need you to function. ...

Wrong, some functions of the body were conscious actions once, they have just been made subconscious.

You don't exist. ...

Who are you talking to then?

Good example of that is when you are in deep dreamless or dream sleep whatever, the body is functioning perfectly fine, another example is during the conception period when the fetus is growing. Life in this instance is in the state of pure awareness, it's natural state unaware of itself as an object. It's just being pure natural awareness or beingness, or aliveness what ever you want to call it.

Once more, there is no 'Life'(look up "reification") just living things and there is no 'natural state' as living is a process that, as far as we can tell do far, starts, progresses and ends and differs according to what body one has.

[Dontaskme]

Dontaskme wrote:

The body functions silently alone all by itself without any conscious attention. It does not need you to function. You don't exist. Good example of that is when you are in deep dreamless or dream sleep whatever, the body is functioning perfectly fine

That is not true. The body sometimes is unhealthy, and the brain chemicals and the hormones can be disrupted including during sleeping. It's also not true because if we did not attend to body needs such eating and drinking we would die.
You are too impulsive. You need to reflect before you write.

Now why would you tell me to reflect before I write. The same can be said for you, reflect before you write.

Putting food in the mouth is an automatic response to the bodies signal that it is hungry. And yes it really does feels like there is a person attending to that need...but all that's happening is there is an awareness of the need, and the body acts accordingly by performing the function of satisfying the hunger by eating. But this is just a function in awareness, there is awareness of hunger and the automatic response to that hunger is to eat. It's not you being hungry, if it was you'd be able to stop feeling hungry ever again ..but there is no you there to stop anything, there is here only awareness. By you I mean..separate I person thinking it is the one being consciousness.

No one is conscious...Consciousness is all there is.

An animal doesn't claim that it is the thing that is hunting for food, there's just the natural instinct to hunt for food brought about by an awareness of hunger... which is followed by the automatic response to that awareness by eating.

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[Dontaskme]

Awareness is not an object, awareness cannot experience itself as an object...it is aware of an object, but if you believe awareness is an object, then explain what it feels like to be the heart, or the blood, or the lung, or a leg, or an arm, etc?

I didn't say awareness is an object I said the object is the body and awareness is its experience of itself.

It's not the body that experiences itself, the body is not aware...so how can a body that is not aware experience itself?

...do you understand this part?

[Dontaskme]

Once more, there is no 'Life'(look up "reification") just living things and there is no 'natural state' as living is a process that, as far as we can tell do far, starts, progresses and ends and differs according to what body one has.

But can you find this concrete thing that knows that?..where is the knower of that knowledge?

Do you not see a big gaping hole in the argument?

And who is this ''we'' that claims such knowledge, are they the little tin foiled hat people who think they know what's actually going on?

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[Arising_uk]

Lets try and refrain from semantics, and look at what is being pointed to.

I'm going to use the word ''presence'' as a CONCEPTUAL reference to PURE AWARENESS ...

You do understand that this is semantics? No matter...

What do you mean by "PURE AWARENESS"? (and why does it have to be in caps?)

To know that something is born, or to know that something dies...is to know there was a beginning to presence, and we all know that a beginning would imply and end.

Not really, it's to watch something being born and to watch something die, can I take it that you've seen neither?

Can you find the very first beginning of presence....where is the starting point where presence first began?

For this body? When the ear is formed. For the 'you', your oldest memory.

You can't because words such as born and die are just words. They're just made-up sounds with made-up meaning attached, all sourced from silent presence.

I'll take that as a no then, you haven't seen a birth or a death.

There's a presence here, without doubt or error...but can the beginning of that presence be known and by what or who?

The body and later memory.

[Arising_uk]

It's not the body that experiences itself, the body is not aware...so how can a body that is not aware experience itself?

I told you, you are not paying attention to your body as the body is aware of many things, for example, next time you are sitting become aware of how the body moves to ease discomfort before you are aware of it.

I'm really still not sure what you mean by "awareness" but awareness is the body being aware of itself.

...do you understand this part?

I understand what you think you are saying, I just disagree with one of the axioms.