Can you understand the logic of Universality, in terms of all of us ending in heaven?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Greatest I am
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Can you understand the logic of Universality, in terms of all of us ending in heaven?

Post by Greatest I am » Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:17 pm

Can you understand the logic of Universality, in terms of all of us ending in heaven?

Hell is obviously an invention of the church. Universalists Gnostic Christianity and other Universalist Abrahamic cults do not see God as a loser of the souls he calls the light of the world.

The light of the world does not end in hell.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

As you can see, especially those last two quotes, all are saved without a sacrifice.

The logic behind Universalism begins with knowing that all souls are created equal. It thus follows that God would treat all souls the same way and would all be given the best possible end due to us being the light of the world and equal. This follows natural law as well as heavenly law as those are never in conflict.

Look at judging, from God’s point of view, with an example of one we mostly think of as evil, Hitler.

Hitler would appear before God and as God examines Hitler’s life, he would see that all those Hitler interacted with, and who contributed to what Hitler became, would all have to share the blame and guilt for Hitler becoming the monster we think he was.

If you take that sound judging logic to it’s ultimate end, you will see the logic of either punishing all of us for what we have contributed to evil, or forgive us all for all being exactly what God, if he existed, created us to be.

Non-Universalist creeds, that have that imaginary religious creation called hell, are trying to appease their own blame and guilt by placing some souls above others even though God would have created us all equal. God unites while religions separate.

Do you believe God to be a Universalist God, or a God that is such a poor creator that he would have to send his perfectly created souls to eternal punishment instead of just curing them, if required?

Regards
DL

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Re: Can you understand the logic of Universality, in terms of all of us ending in heaven?

Post by ]...[ » Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:32 pm

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Um,...looking out the window of my present location...pretty sure this isn't heaven.



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Re: Can you understand the logic of Universality, in terms of all of us ending in heaven?

Post by Greatest I am » Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:05 pm

]...[ wrote:
Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:32 pm
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Um,...looking out the window of my present location...pretty sure this isn't heaven.
Then you live in poverty and delusion if you think it is elsewhere.

Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.
If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.
Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.
But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.

Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be or an ugly and imperfect world?

Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, given all the conditions at hand. That is an irrefutable statement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOGEyBe ... r_embedded

Regards
DL

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Re: Can you understand the logic of Universality, in terms of all of us ending in heaven?

Post by seeds » Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:09 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:05 pm
...if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.

Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be or an ugly and imperfect world?

...we live in the best of all possible worlds, given all the conditions at hand. That is an irrefutable statement.
Hmm, I don’t know, DL.

How about we offer your little “mind exercise” to the children in the images below and see what they have to say...

Image

Image

Clearly, DL, they have no reason to refute your “irrefutable” statement that this is the “best of all possible worlds” and that the world is anything other than “evolving perfection,” right?

However, make sure that they don’t see any pictures of one of “Her Majesty’s” banquets,...

Image

...for it might skew the results of the exercise.
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Re: Can you understand the logic of Universality, in terms of all of us ending in heaven?

Post by Greatest I am » Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:30 pm

Thanks for this.

What does your wish to end that have to do with here and now being the best of all world because it is the only possible world?

Sure, we all have wish lists, but those do not change reality of this being the only possible world given all the conditions that have created us.

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DL

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Re: Can you understand the logic of Universality, in terms of all of us ending in heaven?

Post by ]...[ » Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:51 am

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To the original poster, if you're saying, Fuck it! This is the best we can do... I agree.

Seems you are choosing to look at life through rose colored glasses. Which again, is perfectly fine.

A lot of people could make the case that we are much closer to existing in a man made hell.

Both positions can be equally supported.

You used the word poverty for some reason. Which is odd since in the story christ & his family were despertly poor. Poverty, whether it be of spirit or of property is not & should not be looked at by anyone as a negative- if they perport themselves to be Christian.


I commend you for your thrust but you come off as superficial and not really doing your cause or the tenor of this position due justice.



*** Cudos to the member using the images! MUCH MORE POWERFUL THAN WORDS.


The lord uses the good ones & the bad ones use the lord.
~ Michael Stanley ~




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Re: Can you understand the logic of Universality, in terms of all of us ending in heaven?

Post by Dontaskme » Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:25 am

seeds wrote:
Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:09 pm

How about we offer your little “mind exercise” to the children in the images below and see what they have to say...


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Dear seeds.

Isn't it the same one divine oneness having those opposing experiences as illustrated in the images?

Every experience being the divine expression of oneness? ...I mean what else could be experiencing those conditions?

Isn't the human experience unique in that humans are afforded the experience of opposites making it possible for them to appreciate what ever experience is being experienced for what it is, so that they can know what it isn't?

.

How would the divine know and appreciate what is heaven if it had never known what isn't heaven and vice versa?

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Re: Can you understand the logic of Universality, in terms of all of us ending in heaven?

Post by Greatest I am » Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:17 pm

]...[ wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:51 am
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To the original poster, if you're saying, Fuck it! This is the best we can do... I agree.

Seems you are choosing to look at life through rose colored glasses. Which again, is perfectly fine.

A lot of people could make the case that we are much closer to existing in a man made hell.

Both positions can be equally supported.

You used the word poverty for some reason. Which is odd since in the story christ & his family were despertly poor. Poverty, whether it be of spirit or of property is not & should not be looked at by anyone as a negative- if they perport themselves to be Christian.


I commend you for your thrust but you come off as superficial and not really doing your cause or the tenor of this position due justice.



*** Cudos to the member using the images! MUCH MORE POWERFUL THAN WORDS.


The lord uses the good ones & the bad ones use the lord.
~ Michael Stanley ~
The impression I leave is different in all posters.

I am please you like what I put, a bit.

As to my using the word poverty. I used it because it matches the quote I uses and it means mental poverty or thinking poverty.

As that quote indicates, we are in control of whether we see heaven or hell here on earth.

As to this. "The lord uses the good ones & the bad ones use the lord."

Jesus said he came to serve man, not to be served by man, so it is the good ones that use God.

God has ne needs but man certainly needs all the help he can get.

My God serves me. I do not serve one who has no services he cannot take care of himself.

God was created for man, not man for God.

Regards
DL

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Re: Can you understand the logic of Universality, in terms of all of us ending in heaven?

Post by ]...[ » Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:41 pm

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Was fun seeing you tie yourself in knots trying to twist & turn the straight-forward statement,

The lord uses the good ones & the bad ones use the lord.

Kind-of fell short but it was entertaining.



Think I may have stumbled over your Achille's heel.


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Re: Can you understand the logic of Universality, in terms of all of us ending in heaven?

Post by Harbal » Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:20 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:17 pm
The impression I leave is different in all posters.
I get the impression that you are obsessed with religion.

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Re: Can you understand the logic of Universality, in terms of all of us ending in heaven?

Post by seeds » Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:58 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:25 am
seeds wrote:
Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:09 pm
How about we offer your little “mind exercise” to the children in the images below and see what they have to say...
Dear seeds.

Isn't it the same one divine oneness having those opposing experiences as illustrated in the images?

Every experience being the divine expression of oneness? ...I mean what else could be experiencing those conditions?

Isn't the human experience unique in that humans are afforded the experience of opposites making it possible for them to appreciate what ever experience is being experienced for what it is, so that they can know what it isn't?

.

How would the divine know and appreciate what is heaven if it had never known what isn't heaven and vice versa?

.
HI Dam,

DL asked all of us to tell him what we see when we look around and whether or not it is the “...best that can possibly be...” or whether it is something that is “...ugly and imperfect...”

However, without even considering what this child...

Image

...would say as he surveyed his life and surroundings, he pre-emptively answered the question for him by insisting that the child lives in the “...best of all possible worlds...”

Therefore, I was merely standing-in for the child who would no doubt strongly disagree with DL's assessment.

Furthermore, in a subsequent post, and in light of the hellish and horrific circumstances that the child is experiencing, DL demonstrated how poorly thought-out his arguments are by stating the following:
Greatest I am" wrote: ...we are in control of whether we see heaven or hell here on earth.
I highly doubt that the child in the image above is in control of anything.

I am aware of where DL is coming from in his effort to have humans abandon any hope of there being an actual heaven above and beyond this world, but he needs to understand the full implications of his arguments and perhaps find a better way to present his case.
_______

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Re: Can you understand the logic of Universality, in terms of all of us ending in heaven?

Post by Greatest I am » Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:36 pm

]...[ wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:41 pm
.



Was fun seeing you tie yourself in knots trying to twist & turn the straight-forward statement,

The lord uses the good ones & the bad ones use the lord.

Kind-of fell short but it was entertaining.



Think I may have stumbled over your Achille's heel.


.
If you would have, you would have spoken to the knot or ideas and not made it all about me.

But hey, if your ego says to try to gain un-earned points for yourself ----

Regards
DL

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Re: Can you understand the logic of Universality, in terms of all of us ending in heaven?

Post by Greatest I am » Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:38 pm

Harbal wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:20 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:17 pm
The impression I leave is different in all posters.
I get the impression that you are obsessed with religion.
Correct, because of all the damage it has done and continues to do to society.

Both Christianity and Islam have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them the moral ways.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation.

Regards
DL

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Re: Can you understand the logic of Universality, in terms of all of us ending in heaven?

Post by Greatest I am » Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:44 pm

seeds wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:58 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:25 am
seeds wrote:
Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:09 pm
How about we offer your little “mind exercise” to the children in the images below and see what they have to say...
Dear seeds.

Isn't it the same one divine oneness having those opposing experiences as illustrated in the images?

Every experience being the divine expression of oneness? ...I mean what else could be experiencing those conditions?

Isn't the human experience unique in that humans are afforded the experience of opposites making it possible for them to appreciate what ever experience is being experienced for what it is, so that they can know what it isn't?

.

How would the divine know and appreciate what is heaven if it had never known what isn't heaven and vice versa?

.
HI Dam,

DL asked all of us to tell him what we see when we look around and whether or not it is the “...best that can possibly be...” or whether it is something that is “...ugly and imperfect...”

However, without even considering what this child...

Image

...would say as he surveyed his life and surroundings, he pre-emptively answered the question for him by insisting that the child lives in the “...best of all possible worlds...”

Therefore, I was merely standing-in for the child who would no doubt strongly disagree with DL's assessment.

Furthermore, in a subsequent post, and in light of the hellish and horrific circumstances that the child is experiencing, DL demonstrated how poorly thought-out his arguments are by stating the following:
Greatest I am" wrote: ...we are in control of whether we see heaven or hell here on earth.
I highly doubt that the child in the image above is in control of anything.

I am aware of where DL is coming from in his effort to have humans abandon any hope of there being an actual heaven above and beyond this world, but he needs to understand the full implications of his arguments and perhaps find a better way to present his case.
_______
I have a slightly longer version of what I put but few have what it takes to think in pure logic.

Do you deny that we live in the only possible world possible given all the past condition?

Logically you cannot without destroying entropy and the anthropic principle.

It is irrefutable that we live in the best of all possible worlds, given that it is the only possible world.

Sure, the streets of Eden are full of trash, as the song goes, but it is still Eden.

Regards
DL

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Re: Can you understand the logic of Universality, in terms of all of us ending in heaven?

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:07 am

seeds wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:58 pm
HI Dam,

DL asked all of us to tell him what we see when we look around and whether or not it is the “...best that can possibly be...” or whether it is something that is “...ugly and imperfect...”

However, without even considering what this child...

_______
Thanks for your reply, and I do understand where you are coming from.

So my question to you is...would a child even contemplate an idea of hell if it had no known opposite thoughts to compare it with...who would put the ''hell'' seed of thought into the child?

And I'm also wondering if the same idea can apply to animals...some animals appear to live lives of intense dire circumstances, but from a human personified mind mentally do not appear to rank their predicaments as being either a state of heaven or hell.


It does appear then that the human mind is what makes up the ideas of heaven and hell...where they don't actually exist in the real world.

I understand that this is a tricky subject...I'm not trying to be insensitive toward humans here, I'm just trying to see it from the rawness of what is actually happening as it is...before human personified thoughts attempt to alter the what is....

Is the personified human mind really God's mind or what? ...or does God not have a mind?

Before we can make judgements about what's fair in the world and what isn't, we need to understand what's really going on, by slowly and surely unravelling everything we have been conditioned to think and believe about life....remembering that none of us have ever been alive before, so what the heck do we really know about what's going on...I think it's going to be a long unravelling of all our human conditioning in the attempt to get right back to fundamental grassroots of why everything is the way it is..



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