If clergy were honest, would religions die?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Greatest I am
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If clergy were honest, would religions die?

Post by Greatest I am »

If clergy were honest, would religions die?

I do not think so. Based on the fact, some clergy are maintaining religions based on telling the truth and have stopped lying to their adherents. Knowing this, I wonder why the clergy of all supernaturally based religions continue to lie to their adherents.

In the more honest distant past, those who sought God; did so at a more intellectual level than most do today. The ancients admitted that nothing concrete could be known about God. God was said to be unknowable, unfathomable and worked in mysterious ways and that no attributes could be applied to God.

http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Today, the idol worshiping religions, like Christianity and Islam, have given what they still claim is an unknowable, unfathomable and mysterious God, with kinds of attributes; which of course are human attributes taken to the maximum of the impossible and delusional supernatural.

Some religions seem to be returning to the more intelligent thinking of the ancients.

Would the idol worshiping religions like Christianity and Islam, be well served if their clergy returned to telling the truth of what they can know of God, or are the clergy serving their religions better by continuing to lie to their adherents?

Regards
DL

P.S.
What is said here about politicians and business is a good analogy to what I think religions do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qn16DsftSjI
thedoc
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Re: If clergy were honest, would religions die?

Post by thedoc »

Greatest I am wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:01 pm If clergy were honest, would religions die?

I do not think so. Based on the fact, some clergy are maintaining religions based on telling the truth and have stopped lying to their adherents. Knowing this, I wonder why the clergy of all supernaturally based religions continue to lie to their adherents.

In the more honest distant past, those who sought God; did so at a more intellectual level than most do today. The ancients admitted that nothing concrete could be known about God. God was said to be unknowable, unfathomable and worked in mysterious ways and that no attributes could be applied to God.

http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Today, the idol worshiping religions, like Christianity and Islam, have given what they still claim is an unknowable, unfathomable and mysterious God, with kinds of attributes; which of course are human attributes taken to the maximum of the impossible and delusional supernatural.

Some religions seem to be returning to the more intelligent thinking of the ancients.

Would the idol worshiping religions like Christianity and Islam, be well served if their clergy returned to telling the truth of what they can know of God, or are the clergy serving their religions better by continuing to lie to their adherents?

Regards
DL

P.S.
What is said here about politicians and business is a good analogy to what I think religions do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qn16DsftSjI
The basic assumption of your title of this thread is that the clergy is lying implying that they know that what they are preaching is not true. I think that most clergy and members of a religion believe their religion is true and the clergy is telling the truth so there would be no change from the situation today.
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HexHammer
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Re: If clergy were honest, would religions die?

Post by HexHammer »

Religion WILL die if people interpret The Book of Revelation correctly, because in New Jerusalem there are no temple.

Both Christianity and Islam are Luciferian, since they break the rules of the Bible, Thou shalt not make graven images and bow to them, which both religions do!
Thou shalt not kill, but we kill, we love to kill!! All those wars gives money in the coffers by weapon sales, giving jobs to the weapon industry etc etc!
Thou shalt not lie! So many lies now a day!
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Greatest I am
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Re: If clergy were honest, would religions die?

Post by Greatest I am »

thedoc wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:15 pm
Greatest I am wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:01 pm If clergy were honest, would religions die?

I do not think so. Based on the fact, some clergy are maintaining religions based on telling the truth and have stopped lying to their adherents. Knowing this, I wonder why the clergy of all supernaturally based religions continue to lie to their adherents.

In the more honest distant past, those who sought God; did so at a more intellectual level than most do today. The ancients admitted that nothing concrete could be known about God. God was said to be unknowable, unfathomable and worked in mysterious ways and that no attributes could be applied to God.

http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Today, the idol worshiping religions, like Christianity and Islam, have given what they still claim is an unknowable, unfathomable and mysterious God, with kinds of attributes; which of course are human attributes taken to the maximum of the impossible and delusional supernatural.

Some religions seem to be returning to the more intelligent thinking of the ancients.

Would the idol worshiping religions like Christianity and Islam, be well served if their clergy returned to telling the truth of what they can know of God, or are the clergy serving their religions better by continuing to lie to their adherents?

Regards
DL

P.S.
What is said here about politicians and business is a good analogy to what I think religions do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qn16DsftSjI
The basic assumption of your title of this thread is that the clergy is lying implying that they know that what they are preaching is not true. I think that most clergy and members of a religion believe their religion is true and the clergy is telling the truth so there would be no change from the situation today.
I have spoken to a good number of clergy in my life and can assure you that they mostly all know they are lying.

Most of the believers I have faced also show their doubts when the discussions starts to go to details.
There are always the less intelligent fundamentals but they are recognizable easy enough.

Most begin by telling us that God is unknowable and unfathomable, then ream off what they say they know and fathom, so they know that whatever they think they know and fathom is speculative nonsense.

Regards
DL
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Greatest I am
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Re: If clergy were honest, would religions die?

Post by Greatest I am »

HexHammer wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:22 pm Religion WILL die if people interpret The Book of Revelation correctly, because in New Jerusalem there are no temple.

Both Christianity and Islam are Luciferian, since they break the rules of the Bible, Thou shalt not make graven images and bow to them, which both religions do!
Thou shalt not kill, but we kill, we love to kill!! All those wars gives money in the coffers by weapon sales, giving jobs to the weapon industry etc etc!
Thou shalt not lie! So many lies now a day!
We have no argument my friend.

Care to speculate how or why the religious delude themselves into believing all those lies?

Regards
DL
thedoc
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Re: If clergy were honest, would religions die?

Post by thedoc »

Greatest I am wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:27 pm
I have spoken to a good number of clergy in my life and can assure you that they mostly all know they are lying.

Regards
DL
Then you have spoken to a different group of clergy than I have, so be it.
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Re: If clergy were honest, would religions die?

Post by Greatest I am »

thedoc wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:35 pm
Greatest I am wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:27 pm
I have spoken to a good number of clergy in my life and can assure you that they mostly all know they are lying.

Regards
DL
Then you have spoken to a different group of clergy than I have, so be it.
I have been in technical sales and know how to dig and deal with objections to the sale.

Regards
DL
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HexHammer
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Re: If clergy were honest, would religions die?

Post by HexHammer »

Greatest I am wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:30 pmCare to speculate how or why the religious delude themselves into believing all those lies?
It's very simple, there's a term of psychology called groupthink, where "monkey see, monkey does", there are many different aspects of it, like:
- Milgram Obedience Experiment
- Ashen Conformity Experiment

Besides the groupthink aspects, there's the absolution that is very compelling for many people.
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Re: If clergy were honest, would religions die?

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

Greatest I am wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:30 pm
thedoc wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:35 pm
Greatest I am wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:27 pm
I have spoken to a good number of clergy in my life and can assure you that they mostly all know they are lying.

Regards
DL
Then you have spoken to a different group of clergy than I have, so be it.
I have been in technical sales and know how to dig and deal with objections to the sale.

Regards
DL
I have been in sales myself. Using objection rebuttals is dead wrong. Your philosophy of controlling the conversation is garbage. Wake up, open your eyes and learn.

PhilX
thedoc
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Re: If clergy were honest, would religions die?

Post by thedoc »

From what I've read PhilX knows a bit more about sales than GI, so I know where I'm placing my confidence.
thedoc
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Re: If clergy were honest, would religions die?

Post by thedoc »

Greatest I am wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:30 pm Care to speculate how or why the religious delude themselves into believing all those lies?

Regards
DL
How did you delude yourself into believing they are lies. Can you demonstrate that God doesn't exist or that God is not what believers say God is.
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Greatest I am
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Re: If clergy were honest, would religions die?

Post by Greatest I am »

HexHammer wrote: Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:32 am
Greatest I am wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:30 pmCare to speculate how or why the religious delude themselves into believing all those lies?
It's very simple, there's a term of psychology called groupthink, where "monkey see, monkey does", there are many different aspects of it, like:
- Milgram Obedience Experiment
- Ashen Conformity Experiment

Besides the groupthink aspects, there's the absolution that is very compelling for many people.
I call it the sheeple syndrome.

I agree more with your use of absolution.

Religions are great at creating false guilt and then raking in the cash that the theist will spend to rid himself of the discomfort and fear of hell, which is a lie that he has been made to believe in. To think that a God has condemn us is the first lie the theist must delude himself into thinking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc

That lie and the lie of salvation is what this Bishop says will kill Christianity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKNup9g ... gest-vrecs

Regards
DL
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Re: If clergy were honest, would religions die?

Post by Greatest I am »

Philosophy Explorer wrote: Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:48 am
Greatest I am wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:30 pm
thedoc wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:35 pm

Then you have spoken to a different group of clergy than I have, so be it.
I have been in technical sales and know how to dig and deal with objections to the sale.

Regards
DL
I have been in sales myself. Using objection rebuttals is dead wrong. Your philosophy of controlling the conversation is garbage. Wake up, open your eyes and learn.

PhilX
Interesting.

If not by rebuttal, how did you deal with objections to the sale?

Remember please that in technical sales, the rebuttals are at a technological level where logic and reason reign.

Regards
DL

P.S.
Try to not reply like an a hole.
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Re: If clergy were honest, would religions die?

Post by Greatest I am »

thedoc wrote: Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:53 am
Greatest I am wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:30 pm Care to speculate how or why the religious delude themselves into believing all those lies?

Regards
DL
How did you delude yourself into believing they are lies. Can you demonstrate that God doesn't exist or that God is not what believers say God is.
Reverse onus much. Deal with your own logical fallacy.

I have to hope that the God that Christians and Muslims adore is fiction because if he is not, and is the tyrannical p**** that they describe, then I am going to hell for sure because that God will not allow a moral man WIP like me into heaven.

Regards
DL
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Re: If clergy were honest, would religions die?

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

Greatest I am wrote: Sun Jul 02, 2017 1:13 pm
Philosophy Explorer wrote: Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:48 am
Greatest I am wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:30 pm

I have been in technical sales and know how to dig and deal with objections to the sale.

Regards
DL
I have been in sales myself. Using objection rebuttals is dead wrong. Your philosophy of controlling the conversation is garbage. Wake up, open your eyes and learn.

PhilX
Interesting.

If not by rebuttal, how did you deal with objections to the sale?

Remember please that in technical sales, the rebuttals are at a technological level where logic and reason reign.

Regards
DL

P.S.
Try to not reply like an a hole.
I generally don't reply like an "a hole." The way to deal with objections is to make sure they don't arise in the first place. Lousy selling is the cause. By not giving your prospect the information he or she needs to make a decision, this creates objections which often leads to prospects tuning you out if you try to rebutt them ("Which part of NO don't you understand?") So by giving your prospects the information they need to make an informed decision, you'd make more sales. Repeating a "selling point" (an euphemism for an objection rebuttal) is very irritating to prospects (btw selling is an emotional process, rebuttals are NOT technological-based where reason and logic reign). There is more to this, but I'm not revealing trade secrets.

PhilX
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