!00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Belinda
Posts: 1563
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by Belinda » Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:17 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
There is a God. He will judge the earth, and put an end to all the "injustice" of which Rhodnar is speaking. He has made a way for us to know Him, and to be delivered from this justice. Justice has already been achieved on your behalf. But some will take that way, and some will spit at God instead. So it's the satisfaction of that ultimate true justice, given the presence of temporary injustice, and the ultimate satisfaction of your own situation with God that are matters of real importance. Nothing else.
Unlike Harbal, I do think that Immanuel Can's certainty is dangerous, and therefore not good. This is because the certainty that God will arrange for justice takes away our responsibility as intelligent adults to aim for justice to the best of our abilities. Immanuel's ability to aim for justice is compromised by his belief that God has the matter well in hand.

True, from the point of view of eternity all will be right simply because all is necessarily so . But Immanuel doesn't pass their life in eternity but in this world where intelligent adult men can see injustice every day.

Rhodnar
Posts: 38
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:41 pm

Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by Rhodnar » Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:31 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:06 pm
But what's "just" about striving for an "equality" that reality shows us does not ever naturally exist? And how do we know that the moral or "just" goal would be "equality," especially since reality offers us no dimension in which we are "equal" inherently?
You're getting all hung up on 'physical equality' and inferring that equality cannot exist because of it. I am referring to a state of mind. I do address the issue of 'physical equality' form time to time here, because you keep bringing it up. I am of equal value/worth/importance as any other intelligent being in the Universe and/or beyond. As an atheist that concept shouldn't be so hard for you to grasp. You consider yourself to be of no more importance to reality than a rock. Perhaps this will help...

“Stone walls do not a prison make,
Nor iron bars a cage:” Richard Lovelace.

I am equal to all, because I consider myself to be equal to all.

“I think, therefore I am” René Descartes
Immanuel Can wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:06 pm
Even in your denial above, you reaffirm the same claim. Right here, you say, "I am neither more or less important a being than you." How on earth do you know you're not either more or less "important" than me? :shock: What would ground such a claim? :shock: And to whom would you mean by the word "important"? :shock: The cosmos does not think you OR me important, so far as the Atheist telling of things goes...we're both matters of utter indifference. So how do you get this notion of "importance"?
The entire problem with religion is the notion of subservience to others, the God(s) and those who profess to speak for them. If a god exists, I am its equal, I may not know as much, or be as powerful, but we are both beings. We both have the same 'inherent right' to be. Given that fact, what 'right' does said god have to tell me how to 'be'? Or to attempt to influence my 'being' with “carrot and stick”?
Immanuel Can wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:06 pm
But so what? So what if some entities in the universe can feel nothing, and others can experience pain or "have a brain"? Both brains and rocks are contingent products of an indifferent universe, according to Atheism. And "choosing," well, what tells us that things that can wriggle are "better" than things that cannot? Both are indifferent products headed to nowhere, according to Atheism.
And yet, you still get up in the morning, and live out your day.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:06 pm
I think you're new to this debate, so to a certain extent you're feeling the need to go over territory covered many times long before you arrived. But there is no reason to think, on an Atheist account, anything in the universe is either value-better than a rock or deserving of a "just" outcome, whether "equality" or not. If you think there is such, you should provide it, I would say.
Bow down before the god that you call atheism you mean?
You've gone way too far.

'There is no right or wrong.'
'There is no just or unjust.'
'There is no happy or sad.'
'There is no love or hate.'
'There is no...' Reason to be.

Come back out of the cold. There doesn't have to be a creator, but nor does there have not to be.

Becoming truly just, makes you truly happy, in an uncertain universe. I neither believe in, nor disbelieve in creation, I don't have a need to.

Rhodnar
Posts: 38
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:41 pm

Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by Rhodnar » Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:58 pm

“To be worthy of being called a god, a being must be truly just, and the truly just, have no desire to be regarded as gods. Therefore; there are no gods.”

The correctness of this statement is blindingly obvious, but still many of you cannot see it.

Why?

You “have a horse in the race”.

The problem with “having a horse in the race” is that you lose the capacity for rational thought.

As Neil deGrasse Tyson points out about Isaac Newton, once Newton had invoked God he no longer had a reason to do the math.

If we look at global warming as an example, we can see the problem more clearly.

We don't know 100% for sure, that global warming is fact.
We don't know 100% for sure, that if global warming is a fact, how much of it, if any is due to human activity.
We do know for sure, that if global warming is a fact, it's going to be really, really bad for us.

Do we do the logical thing and try to do something about it, regardless?
Well some of us do, but some of us listen to people with a “horse in the race”.

We don't have to stop using fossil fuels over night. We don't have to listen to people who say the whole thing is just a conspiracy. We can choose to do something that may help.

If the Universe was created by a being or beings, it/they are beings, and so am I. I can choose to become truly just whether it/they are truly just or not. If the Universe was not created, I can still choose to become truly just or not. I do not need to “have a horse in the race”. I can just do the logical thing.

If your God exists, and condemns me to an eternity of suffering because I chose to become truly just, what does that tell you about your God?
If there is no god, and no creation, am I less truly happy?

I love each and every one of you unconditionally.
I have no god.
I have no questions regarding the nature of reality, or the meaning of life.
I am complete...Well, there is still the question of your happiness so...Perhaps not, but complete'ish.

User avatar
Harbal
Posts: 3846
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:03 pm
Location: Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by Harbal » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:54 pm

Rhodnar wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:58 pm
“To be worthy of being called a god, a being must be truly just,
That is just an opinion and not necessarily part of the definition of the word god.
and the truly just, have no desire to be regarded as gods. Therefore; there are no gods.”

The correctness of this statement is blindingly obvious, but still many of you cannot see it.
If there were a "truly just" being that qualified as a god then that being would be a god, regardless of its desire, so the correctness of your statement is not blindingly obvious at all. In fact, as arguments go, I would say it's very poor.

User avatar
attofishpi
Posts: 2336
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:10 am
Location: Orion Spur
Contact:

Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by attofishpi » Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:19 am

Harbal wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:54 pm
Rhodnar wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:58 pm
“To be worthy of being called a god, a being must be truly just,
That is just an opinion and not necessarily part of the definition of the word god.
and the truly just, have no desire to be regarded as gods. Therefore; there are no gods.”

The correctness of this statement is blindingly obvious, but still many of you cannot see it.
If there were a "truly just" being that qualified as a god then that being would be a god, regardless of its desire, so the correctness of your statement is not blindingly obvious at all. In fact, as arguments go, I would say it's very poor.
Yeah, good enough for me Harbal. Its kinda a redundant thread since Rhodnar obviously is admitting failure in his\her\its first thread.

Belinda
Posts: 1563
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by Belinda » Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:01 am

Rhodnar wrote:
You “have a horse in the race”.

The problem with “having a horse in the race” is that you lose the capacity for rational thought.

As Neil deGrasse Tyson points out about Isaac Newton, once Newton had invoked God he no longer had a reason to do the math.

If we look at global warming as an example, we can see the problem more clearly.

We don't know 100% for sure, that global warming is fact.
We don't know 100% for sure, that if global warming is a fact, how much of it, if any is due to human activity.
We do know for sure, that if global warming is a fact, it's going to be really, really bad for us.

Do we do the logical thing and try to do something about it, regardless?
Well some of us do, but some of us listen to people with a “horse in the race”.
So if one has a horse in the race one is unwilling to accept that life goes on regardless of what one hopes for.

Talking of horses, if wishes were horses beggars would ride. But then the God-believer rebuts " the beggar gets the consolation and reward in the afterlife where all is just ".

Afterlife is not eternity . Afterlife is not eternity which is timeless and has no location and 'in' which there are not individuals but only one great event.

Rhodnar
Posts: 38
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:41 pm

Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by Rhodnar » Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:44 pm

We all "have a horse in the race", because we all have our own unique belief system regarding our own existence.
My point is that we can all choose to become truly just, and thus find true happiness, regardless of the "truth".

Should the "truth" turn out to be theist, and their "God" is truly just, it cannot reject you.
Should the "truth" turn out to be theist, and their "God" isn't truly just, you are morally its superior and would not wish to serve it.

Should the "truth" turn out to be atheist, you lived and died truly happy.

Should the "truth" turn out to be truly just, you are now, and always were, free to believe whatever you wanted to believe. No harm, no foul. Somehow, somewhere, someway, you'll find true happiness for yourself.

There is no promise of "life eternal", there is only true happiness, that I can attest, for I have found it.

User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 4119
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:39 pm

Rhodnar wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:44 pm
We all "have a horse in the race", because we all have our own unique belief system regarding our own existence.
Tommyrot.

People don't have "unique" beliefs. If they do, they're called quacks and loonies, and rightly so. People have beliefs that other people find credible. That's why they're able to form ideological communities. If beliefs were "unique," then this would be impossible. Nobody would ever agree.
My point is that we can all choose to become truly just, and thus find true happiness, regardless of the "truth".
When you define-down "justice" to mean no more than "what everybody's already got," then you're right. Otherwise, this too is nonsense. There is no "truly just" without objective justice.
Should the "truth" turn out to be theist, and their "God" is truly just, it cannot reject you.
So you think God has to "not reject" people who reject Him? You think he's only "truly just" (though truth, according to you, doesn't even exist; and nor does any substantive concept of "justice," apparently) if He has nothing to say about rapists, pedophiles and Hitler? I just want to get this clear, because it makes absolutely no sense at all.
There is no promise of "life eternal", there is only true happiness, that I can attest, for I have found it.
So you died, and came back, and can now tell us that "there is no promise of life eternal," even though apparently you've been granted the exception that disproves your own statement? :shock:

I think I need some Prozac and a lie-down.

User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 4119
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:52 pm

Belinda wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:17 am
I do think that Immanuel Can's certainty is dangerous, and therefore not good.
Well, here's a certainty for you: one day, the answer will be upon us. We can agree on that, surely. In fact, it's impossible not to agree to that.

That means there WILL be an answer, and certainly too. You know it, and I know it.

Now, that doesn't "take away our responsibility" at all. We've all got to be ready for what comes, because it's going to come. You are most certainly responsible to do that.
...this world where intelligent adult men can see injustice every day.
Yes, they do. They just can't seem to stop it happening. No sooner do they plug one "hole," when three others spring out. That's the whole story of this world: final justice never seems to arrive.

But if God is telling us the truth, then justice is coming. It must, or you'd be right -- He'd be unjust. But when it comes, where will your response to that fact leave you? That is the issue of our responsibility: for it is very easy to see the evil that others do, but also very tempting for us to excuse it in ourselves. That too is an expression of injustice. And that too must be brought to a final answer.

Reflex
Posts: 570
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:09 pm

Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by Reflex » Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:24 pm

I suggest The Weakness of God by John D. Caputo.

Belinda
Posts: 1563
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by Belinda » Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:46 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
But if God is telling us the truth, then justice is coming. It must, or you'd be right -- He'd be unjust. But when it comes, where will your response to that fact leave you? That is the issue of our responsibility: for it is very easy to see the evil that others do, but also very tempting for us to excuse it in ourselves. That too is an expression of injustice. And that too must be brought to a final answer.

We don't yet live in that future. We have present evils. You don't know any final justice . A grown man does not live hand in hand with Daddy.

User avatar
PauloL
Posts: 472
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:12 pm
Location: Lisbon, Portugal.

Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by PauloL » Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:13 pm

.



Rhodnar wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:20 pm
People are not God, so they don't have to be perfect, like, as you say, God is.

God may allow for contingency as an option so that people have free will, which allows for evilness, if they so wish. Otherwise people would be automata.

Harder to understand are the elements and microbial diseases.

My trial explanations are against the dogma:

- For the elements, God isn't limitless in composing physics laws, so these are the best divinely possible, not the ideal ones, which wouldn't but benefit humanity.

- For microbes, sometimes I think there's not one, but many Gods that fight each other.

Still thinking about limited physics, admitting there's one only planet with life, why would it be necessary such a huge Universe? Maybe it would be physically impossible to have one single planet,a star and a satellite.

Lastly, admitting whether God exists or not must be the ultimate question and thus you must not admit any monotheistic religion is right, as all three religions can be completely wrong and still God exist.

========================================== Nothing of this proves there's no God ==============================================




.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests